Assalamu Alykum

[Zhakir]

I have some Questions about the baha'i faith.
* Do you believe scriputers sent by God to apply in your faith/life?
*Though you don't believe our beloved prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the final Of Allah (swt) ,do you believe the Quran to be the final book of Allah (swt)?
or do you believe Allah (swt) has sent a book to Bahauallah for people?
*And is bahauallah the final messanger?

[arthra]

Zhakir:

Thanks for posting on the Baha'i Faith Forum here at RF!

Zhakir wrote:

I have some Questions about the baha'i faith.

* Do you believe scriputers sent by God to apply in your faith/life?

The short answer is yes we believe the Baha'i Writings were revealed by God and apply to our faith and life.. You can see some of the Writings translatyed into English at

Baha'i Reference Library

*Though you don't believe our beloved prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the final Of Allah (swt) ,do you believe the Quran to be the final book of Allah (swt)?

We believe Prophet Muhammad sealed the age of prophecy that ended around 1260 AH/1844 CE. and that age of fulfillment has begun. The Qur'an is an authentic repository of the Word of God. We believe that that Word has continued in the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah in this day.

or do you believe Allah (swt) has sent a book to Bahauallah for people?

Yes, as above we believe the Writings of Baha'u'llah are revealed from God and that they apply to the problems and issues of this world age we live in..

*And is bahauallah the final messanger?

His Holiness Baha'u'llah was we believe the latest Messenger from God for this day. Baha'u'llah revealed that God would send another Manifesation in no less than a thousand years..

Again thanks for the questions!

- Art

[Zhakir]

Thank you very much that was helpful.
Now what has been on my mind is,what if the authentic Quran which was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) contradicts with any of the authentic writings of Bahauallah?
Like the Day of judgement,a main pillar of faith in Quran,which as far as i know baha'is don't believe in(jahanam and janah).
Do baha'is then believe that the day of judgement is only for the people of the pre-message of Bahauallah time? though the Quran says All people till last day will be brought to the judgement?
I think this is a main issue,and i will be happy to know.
Thank you for taking time to respond to my question brother.

[arthra]

Once again welcome Zhakir to the Baha'i Forum!

and thanks again for your questions.

Zhakir asked:

Now what has been on my mind is,what if the authentic Quran which was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) contradicts with any of the authentic writings of Bahauallah?
Like the Day of judgement,a main pillar of faith in Quran,which as far as i know baha'is don't believe in(jahanam and janah). Do baha'is then believe that the day of judgement is only for the people of the pre-message of Bahauallah time? though the Quran says All people till last day will be brought to the judgement?

My reply:

As far as ordinances and laws of the former dispensation many of them have been abrogated in the Kitab-i-Aqdas which was revealed through Baha'u'llah ...

As to our belief in the Day of Judgement it is the issue of the recognition of the Messenger of God for this day.. So we are being judged by our response to God's Message..

How was it in the days of Prophet Muhammad? What happened to those who rejected Him and what happened in the days of His Holiness Jesus when they rejected Him.. So there is Judgement.

Moreover, Joseph had come to you before with clear tokens, but you ceased not to doubt of the Message with which he came to you, until when he died, you said, `God will by no means raise up a Messenger [rasúl] after him'. Thus God misleadeth him who is a transgressor, a doubter. (40:34)

No apostle [rasúl] cometh to them but they laugh him to scorn. (36:30)

We believe the Day of Judgement is already here:

Praise be to Him Who hath made the world of being, and hath fashioned all that is, Him Who hath raised up the sincere to a station of honour [1] and hath made the invisible world to appear on the plane of the visible -- yet still, in their drunken stupor,[2] do men wander and stray.

[1 Qur'án 17:81]
[2 Qur'án 15:72]

He hath laid down the foundations of the lofty Citadel, He hath inaugurated the Cycle of Glory, He hath brought forth a new creation on this day that is clearly Judgement Day -- and still do the heedless stay fast in their drunken sleep.
The Bugle [1] hath sounded, the Trumpet [2] hath been blown, the Crier hath raised his call, and all upon the earth have swooned away -- but still do the dead, in the tombs of their bodies, sleep on.

[1 Qur'án 39:68; Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 133]
[2 Qur'án 74:8]

And the second clarion [1] hath sounded, there hath followed the second blast after the first,[2] and the dread woe hath come, and every nursing mother hath forgot the infant at her breast [3] -- yet still the people, confused and distracted, heed it not.

[1 Qur'án 39:68]
[2 Qur'án 79:6]
[3 Qur'án 22:2]

And the Resurrection hath dawned, and the Hour hath struck, and the Path hath been drawn straight, and the Balance hath been set up, and all upon the earth have been gathered together [1] -- but still the people see no sign of the way.

[1 Qur'án 34:39]

From Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 13


- Art

[Zhakir]

Many of Quran's laws have obrogated in Al-kitabu al-aqdas, now i understand.
But according to Bahauallah won't such verses like
22:7 of the Quran apply even for those in the time of Muhammad (pbuh)
And verily the Hour will come: there can be no doubt about it, or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves.
the words raise up and graves are used meaning this will happen after their death.

[arthra]

Zhikir:

Once again we have the bounty of your questions..

There is a literalist understanding and a symbolic understanding.. We Baha'is do not interpret many of the prophecies literally as you may be used to..

Again here are some of the revealed Writings:

All the signs appeared when We drew forth the Hand of Power from the bosom of majesty and might.

Verily, the Crier hath cried out, when the promised time came, and they that have recognized the splendours of Sinai have swooned away in the wilderness of hesitation, before the awful majesty of thy Lord, the Lord of creation.

The trumpet asketh: 'Hath the Bugle been sounded?' Say: 'Yea, by the King of Revelation! when He mounted the throne of His Name, the All-Merciful.'

Darkness hath been chased away by the dawning light of the mercy of thy Lord, the Source of all light.

The breeze of the All-Merciful hath wafted, and the souls have been quickened in the tombs of their bodies. Thus hath the decree been fulfilled by God, the Mighty, the Beneficent.

They who reject the truth have said: 'When were the heavens cleft asunder?' Say: 'While ye lay in the graves of waywardness and error.'

~ Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 118-119

- Art

[Zhakir]

and the souls have been quickened in the tombs of their bodies. Thus hath the decree been fulfilled by God, the Mighty, the Beneficent.

They who reject the truth have said: 'When were the heavens cleft asunder?' Say: 'While ye lay in the graves of waywardness and error.'

Can i understand it like this?: the Resurrection of the death as explained in many verses of the Quran like sura Qiyama ch.75 is differently understood by baha'is,
In other words no (real) Hell fire and (real) janah,(as believed in islam),in the baha'ie faith.and it's only in earth.and not after death.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Zhakir

Can i understand it like this?: the Resurrection of the death as explained in many verses of the Quran like sura Qiyama ch.75 is differently understood by baha'is,
In other words no (real) Hell fire and (real) janah,(as believed in islam),in the baha'ie faith.and it's only in earth.and not after death.

Zhakir:

Baha'is take the resurrection to mean a spiritual one not a literal physical one.. Hell is being alienated form God and heaven is nearness to God.. Death when referred to in scripture is also spiritual death.

I'll provide some other examples that have been gleaned from the Kitab-i-Iqan:

EARTH": The human heart

[Iqán p. 46: "In like manner, endeavour to comprehend the meaning of the 'changing of the earth.' Know thou, that upon whatever hearts the bountiful showers of mercy, raining from the 'heaven' of divine Revelation, have fallen, the earth of those hearts hath verily been changed into the earth of divine knowledge and wisdom."]

"HEAVEN": A Revelation from God

[Iqán p. 44: "By 'heaven' is meant the heaven of divine Revelation, which is elevated with every Manifestation, and rent asunder with every subsequent one."]

That part of each Revelation that is subject to change in succeeding Dispensations

[Some Answered Questions p. 67: "Notice how clear and evident it is that the first heaven and earth signify the former Law."]

"GRAVE", "TOMB", "SEPULCHRE": Heedlessness and error

[Iqán p. 26: "Once more hath the eternal Spirit breathed into the mystic trumpet, and caused the dead to speed out of their sepulchers of heedlessness and error into the realm of guidance and grace."] [Iqán p. 119: "Reflect, had these two souls been quickened by the trumpet-call of 'Ali, had they risen from the grave of error by the power of his love, the judgment of death would certainly not have been pronounced against them." ]

Vain and selfish desires

[Iqán p. 92: "For, verily, powerful is He, the King of divine might, to ... bestow upon them a new and everlasting life, and cause them to arise and speed out of the sepulchers of their vain and selfish desires."]

Self [Iqán p. 120: "Behold, all the people are imprisoned within the tomb of self, and lie buried beneath the nethermost depths of worldly desire!"]

"EYESALVE", "COLLYRIUM": The knowledge of God [Iqán p. 31: "Were the eye to be anointed and illumined with the collyrium of the knowledge of God..."]

"ANGELS": People who have replaced faults with divine attributes [Iqán pp. 78-79: "By 'angels' is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim." Also see Tablets of the Divine Plan p.47.]

Confirmations from God [Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 81: "The meaning of 'angels' is the confirmations of God and His celestial powers."]

"LIGHT":

Kumeyl ibn Ziyad, one of 'Ali's chosen disciples, once demanded of his Master, behind whom he was seated on a dromedary, "What is Truth?" "What has thou to do with the Truth?" answered 'Ali, "for verily it is one of God's mysteries, and a jewel out of His treasure-house." Then said Kumeyl, "O my Master, am I not worthy to share thy secret?"

"Yes," answered 'Ali, "but the matter is a great one." "O my Master," said Kumeyl, "dost thou desire those who beg at the door of thy bounty to be turned away?" "Nay, verily," answered 'Ali, "I will answer the call of such as are troubled, and will sprinkle upon thee somewhat of the overflowing fullness of the Station of the Truth; receive it from me according to thy capacity, and conceal it from such as are unworthy to share it.

"O Kumeyl, the Truth is the revelation of the splendours of Divine Majesty without a sign." "O my Master," said Kumeyl, "I understand not thy meaning; explain it to me further." "The effacement of the conjectured, and the clearing of the known." continued 'Ali. "Explain more fully," demanded Kumeyl. "The rending of the veil by the triumph of the mystery," said 'Ali. [Shoghi Effendi's translation: "Piercing the veils of glory, unaided." Iqan 164] "O my beloved Master," rejoined Kumeyl, "tell me more." "The attraction of the Divine Unity through the nature of the apprehension of its Oneness," added 'Ali.

"Tell me more clearly," repeated Kumeyl. Then said 'Ali, "A light shining forth from the Morning of Eternity and irradiating the temples of the unity." [Shoghi Effendi's translation: "Behold, a light hath shone forth out of the Morn of eternity, and lo! its waves have penetrated the inmost reality of all men." Iqan 102]

This is apparently E.G. Browne's translation of this Islamic Hadith. It is quoted in Christopher Buck, "Symbol & Secret: Qur'an Commentary in Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Iqan" (Los Angeles: Kalimat Press, 1995), pp. 200-201.

"TRIBULATION", "OPPRESSION", "HARDSHIP", "DARKNESS": Not knowing where to go to find the truth [Iqán p. 31: "What 'oppression' is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it?]

Lacking guidance [Iqán p. 32: "By it is meant that when the Day-star of Truth hath set, and the mirrors that reflect His light have departed, mankind will become afflicted with 'oppression' and hardship, knowing not whither to turn for guidance."]

"DARKNESS": Error [Iqán p. 31: "For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error."]

"LIFE": Possessing faith [Iqán p. 114: "By the terms 'life' and 'death,' spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief."]

THE "BLIND" RECEIVING "SIGHT": An unbeliever receiving faith [Some Answered Questions, p. 102: "Wherever in the Holy Books ...it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception."]

"SUN", "MOON", AND "STARS": The Manifestations of God [Iqán p. 33: "Thus, by the 'sun' in one sense is meant those Suns of Truth Who rise from the dayspring of ancient glory, and fill the world with a liberal effusion of grace from on high. These Suns of Truth are the universal Manifestations of God..."]

and Their companions [Iqán p. 36: "Thus, it hath become evident that the terms 'sun,' 'moon,' and 'stars' primarily signify the Prophets of God, the saints, and their companions, those Luminaries..."]

The clergy of the past Dispensations [Iqán p. 36: "In another sense, by these terms is intended the divines of the former Dispensation, who live in the days of the subsequent Revelations, and who hold the reins of religion in their grasp."]

The teachings which are subject to change and renewal in each succeeding Dispensation [Iqán p. 38: "In another sense, by the terms 'sun', 'moon', and 'stars' are meant such laws and teachings as have been established and proclaimed in every Dispensation, such as the laws of prayer and fasting."]

"BREAD": The perfections, teachings, and bounties of Christ [Some Answered Questions p. 98: "Reflect how clear it is that what Christ meant by the heavenly bread was His spirit, His bounties, His perfections and His teachings..."]

The explanations of the symbols in the Holy Books [Iqán p. 22: "This wronged One will cite but one of these instances, thus conferring upon mankind ... such bounties as are yet concealed ... This is the food that conferreth everlasting life upon the pure in heart and the illumined in spirit. This is the bread of which it is said: 'Lord, send down upon us Thy bread from heaven.']

Heavenly food [Some Answered Questions p. 97: "The bread signifies the heavenly food and divine perfections."]

"EATING" and "DRINKING": Drawing closer to the Manifestation and believing in Him [Some Answered Questions p. 98: "Then it is evident and established that the celestial food is the divine bounties, the spiritual splendors, the heavenly teachings, the universal meaning of Christ. To eat is to draw near to Him, and to drink is to believe in Him."]

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/essays/iqan.bible.html

So take your time exploring this and if you still have questiosn letus know...

- Art

[Steinninn]

There are many prophesies in the Tora that the Jews take literally but the christians take as symbolic. The interesting thing is that the prophesies that Jesus gave are taken literally by christians. So do you take all the prophesies of Jesus literally?

So some of the bible has changed over time. But my understanding is that there were mainly parts taken out. So the ones that are there are mostly correct.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Steinninn

There are many prophesies in the Tora that the Jews take literally but the christians take as symbolic. The interesting thing is that the prophesies that Jesus gave are taken literally by christians. So do you take all the prophesies of Jesus literally?

So some of the bible has changed over time. But my understanding is that there were mainly parts taken out. So the ones that are there are mostly correct.

If you haven't already done so Steinninn I'd urge you to read the Kitab-i-Iqan! It explains a lot of the symbolism in the Qur'an and the Bible:

Kitab-i-Iqan: The Book of Certitude

- Art