Baha'ism compared to Islam? (Jesus, ritual, Earth, Torah, Kingdom)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Salaam

I see a few differences now, although still nothing significant from what I can see. in Islam everybody was encouraged t ofree as many slaves as possible, so applying that princiupel today it would be possible to free all slaves considering the lifestyles we haev today. men and women are somewhat equal, although it is still clear, whether it be in Islam, Christianity or Judaism or the Baha'i faith, that men are stronger and more capable of certain tasks, while women are more capable and responsible for certain tasks, husbands and wives were encouraged to discuss and give each other mutual advice, but as far as being completely equal on all terms I can't see how that would be possible.

For what it's worth, the ideal even among Baha'is is for the mothers to be most involved at home as they are "the first educators of the children." But the ideal is not always the best individual choice for a family at any particular time, and women, with today's conveniences, are more able to participate in public life, and should have options as men do. It took my grandmother 2 days to do laundry. It takes me almost no time at all. I have plenty of time left to involve myself in public life.

see the "no violence whatsoever" part I was misinformed about, thisi s why I am askign these questions and studyign the faith, I was under the impression that some of teh Baha'i teachings were to spreade the faith until all were converted to the religion, and even to kill some under circumstances I forget.

Oh, killing to defend oneself or another is allowed. It is killing to defend ourselves when we are attacked merely for our faith that is not allowed. We may fight for our faith, but we are told to use the swords of our tongues...to argue and persuade...not to harm anyone.

the difference in wives I now understand. Islam follows the tradition of Ibrahim, peace be upon him, who to my knowledge had three wives?

Yes, indeed. And it was through Ibrahim's 3rd wife Keturah that Baha'u'llah is descended.

But these times are different. Even in the Holy Qu'ran, while Muhammad (pbuh) allows up to 4 wives if they are treated fairly, in another place the Qu'ran says that really the wives cannot be treated fairly. This is a rising tide in many Muslim schools of though, which are leaning toward monogamy as preferable now even though multiples wives are still allowed.

may I ask, was the reason many of you chose the Baha'i faith over Islam, as Scott stated? and you felt that you needed a new explanation about God, or were there other reasons for acceptbign the Baha'i faith? What I am meanign to ask is, have many of ou accepted the Baha'i faith first, and acknowledged Islam by doign so, or have any of you studied the Qur'an prior to accepting the Baha'i faith?

I was raised a Christian, was an atheist for a long time, though I studied many religions, including Islam. I read the Holy Qu'ran, and I saw wisdom in it, but still could not find a reason to believe in God. It was only after reading Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-Iqan that I found that reason. His explanations there made so much sense...it made sense of why there would be all the religions there are. I found a reason to believe in God and to understand that Muhammad was a Prophet and the Qu'ran was indeed a true Revelation.

Since then I continue to read the Qu'ran and each time find more wisdom than before.

But just for me of course, for me to become a Muslims, well it might be sort of like you becoming a Christian? Christ's Gospel was true also (whatever one may believe about how accurate the texts are now) and he was Prophet also. But why would you give up Islam, whose Message Muhammad delivered to us was a later more up to date one, for an older Revelatin? Yes, they both hold God's truth, but one may well assume that a more recent Revelation would be more suited for our times and possibly have more information now that we are able to understand more?

From a Baha'i point of view, humanity is forever growing up, and our lessons from God take that into account each time we get a new "textbook."

This is in no way to say anything previous was somehow deficient. Nothing from God is ever deficient.

and I'm sorry Arthra for typing this in the wrogn forum, I'll be sure to keep this in mind. thanks again.

As long as you are asking questions and not debating anything, this is the right forum. If a need to debate arises, anyone can ask one of the mods to move the thread to Comparitive Religion and we can continue. It's no problem.

[Popeyesays]

Brother Salaam,

I had investigated Islam before I knew anything of the faith of Baha`u'llah. I could not accept the violence that SEEMED to be inherent in Islam and it's note of finality.

When I discovered the Baha`i Faith it rang through me. I spent six or eight months finding reasons not to accept it. that's a personality trait of mine. Doubt things to death is my watchword.

I raised a lot of walls, but they were full of holes, my fortress of resistance crumbled and I decidced that I ought to put my committment on the line. I did.

Accepting Baha`u'llah gave me an understanding of the Qur'an and defense of the faith that overcame my misunderstandings of Islam.

Regards,
Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings! :-)

Originally Posted by Salaam

may I ask, was the reason many of you chose the Baha'i faith over Islam, as Scott stated?

For me, because the Baha'i Faith has the social laws and teachings for THIS Day, not for some other millenia ago!

(And the idea of becoming Muslim never even entered into this decision: I progressed directly from Christianity into the Baha'i Faith.)

Though clearly, many did indeed study the Qur'an before they decided to become Baha'i because they were already Muslim!

Regards, :-)

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Booko

[i]t was through Ibrahim's 3rd wife Keturah that Baha'u'llah is descended.

And also from Sarah (through David)!

Best, :-)

Bruce

[Salaam]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Greetings! :-)



For me, because the Baha'i Faith has the social laws and teachings for THIS Day, not for some other millenia ago!

(And the idea of becoming Muslim never even entered into this decision: I progressed directly from Christianity into the Baha'i Faith.)

Though clearly, many did indeed study the Qur'an before they decided to become Baha'i because they were already Muslim!

Regards, :-)

Bruce

this is what I was trying to clarify, how could you have entered the Baha'i faith, and by doing so accepted Islam and the holy Qur'an as a Revelation from Allah(swt), even while you did not know anything about the Qur'an or Islam? it would make more sense if one were to study the Qur'an, study the Injil, and study the Tawrat, and then study the Baha'i texts and understand it to mean what you do now, after already realizing that the previous revelations were Messages from God i ntheir ORIGINAL states.

now as for me reverting to Christianity after having been a Muslim, that would be different from a Baha'i accepting Islam after having been a Baha'i, because the holy Qur'an's message is contradictory to the current Bible's message, and this is becasue the Bible as we know it today, and the Christ(pbuh) that is portrayed today by the church, is completely contradictory to both the Quranic and Baha'i understanding of Christ and of the Bible too, to my knowledge. Christianity teaches that Christ alone is mankind's savior, even while the Tawrat taught that no man can redeem another man, or give to God a ransom for him, yet Christianity teaches that the man, the prophet, Messiah son of Mary, is the sole savior of mankind, and that our redemption does not come from our deeds, or our faith in God, but from our acceptance of the am nand teh prophet Isa, son of Mary, and the event, that supposedly was him having been crucified and clearign he sins of humanity ,even though this entire theory is in contradiction ot the holy Qur'an and the Torah. so in Christianity, we are not responsible for our own deeds, unlike what you have told me the Baha'i faith teaches, which is also exactly what Allah revealed in the Qur'an, beign that we are al lresponsible for our own individual deeds,and that "No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" - to quote the Qur'an.

so me becoming a Christian after having been a Muslim would be to convert from belief to disbelief, and thats without mentioning the Christian sects which have strayed from monotheism and worshipped numerous singular "gods" or such a "god".

while Islam, in its entirey, and its sole message, to warn mankind and to clarify everything that has ever been revealed, is that we are all responsible for our own deeds, and that Isa upon him be peace was indeed a messenger of Allah, to inform the Jews, and that he is nothing more than a messenger of Allah, and a righteous man, to inform the Christians, and that our "Ilah is one Ilah", not 'The third of three", and that we all must pray, repent, and be merciful to mankind, so that God will be merciful towards us, give charity so that no one goes hungry, and if we are able to have 4 wives, and are able to fairly treat them all ,the nwe are allowed to, btu if we are not able nor capable, then we are not. the prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam was married to one woman , in his first marriage he stayed married to one woman until she died, for many years, so that gives us a good example of how we should marry if we ar eto follow the prophet's example.

what I am trying to say is, Islam is the only religion, which is basically 'perfect', whic henjoins everythign good, and forbids everythign evil, which teaches and warns us to believe in one God, that there is no God but Him, and that to Him we all must surrender ourselves copmpletely as slaves, and that we must pray, to Him, repent, to him, doo good, FOR hIM,AND BE MERCIFUL for HIM, TO FREE SLAVES, FOR hIM, TO BE EQUITABLE TOWARDS EVERYONE, FOR hIM, and by carrying out these obligations, we would reach salvation and Allah will make our path to Paradise easy.

so it is not the same to convert from Belief to disbelief, and to convert from belief to belief, it is not even a conversion in that sense, like you said, it is basically the same religion, but Islam and Christianity are not the same religion, and Islam and Judaism are not the same religion, and the Baha'i faith and Judaism adn Christianity are not the same or similar.

but Islam and the Baha'i faith seem to be indentical in their roads to salvation. I see soem of you say you did study the holy Qur'an prior t oaccepting the Baha'i faith, and that maeks soem sense to me, although it matters why you studied it and for what reason. I am not one to say you are wrong or that I am right, I know and believe only waht the prophet and Allah have ordaiend for me, and what I am sayign is, this, in its significant parts, is teh same exact path of Godliness, that the Baha'i faith professes, which is what it seems to me.

that is teh difference between me becoming a Christian and you becoming a Muslim. if you acknowledge that "There is no god but The God(Allah SWT, and Muhammad(SAW) is His messenger" and you worship Allah, and the pray, and are dutiful to your parents, do not harm your neighbor, and you say what is good or keep quiet, then you may well be a Muslim, because tahts basically what a Muslim is, a slave of Allah, of God.

like one of my Muslim brothers or sisters pointed out earlier, all those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do good, and forbid evil, shall have their reward with their Lord, Allah. and from the look of it many Baha'is do these things, which is why I say the Baha'i faith and Islam are nearly indentical in their significant parts.

so if a Baha'i were to convert to Islam, it almost be as if he had stayed the same and not 'converted' at all.

I do respect the Baha'i faith and the Baha'is whho follow it that I have met so far.

as for violence in the holy Qur'an, when you were studying it you did not know or understand the context in which the "violence" was taking place. the prophet Muhammad 9saw) was only defendign hiimself and his faith, even after having been persecuted for years, havign his followers slaughters, his followers raped, and after having people attemtp to murder him, when the prophet marched back into the holy city of Mekkah from Medinah, with 10,000 Muslims, believing men, and conquered the land, he did this, almost, without any bloodshed whatsoever,m, the people hwo had persecuted and ridiculed him and his followers nad killed soem and attempted to kill him, when the yasked him what would be done with them, after having conquered teh city, the holy prophet replied that all the previous injustices committed against him and his people, were under his feet, ie, forgiven. show me a conquest that was done i nthis way by any other man or prophet, this is the definitio nof mercy, and no blood was spileld besides a very few, maybe 3 or 4 deserving people, none others were killed, and the lawls of teh pagans were abolished, and Islam was installed, peacefully.


what followed was Allah's promise beign fulfilled, and Islam having been carried a vast part of teh world, if this was not a grant of victory from God, I dont know what is.

this was just t opoint out tha the Qur'an was just orders, revelations to the prophet by God, and we are to understand the Revelation in its context and apply it today. imagine if mankind would have applied the teaachings of Islam tothe westen world, slavery would have been abolished ages ago, murders, genocides, persecution ansd oppression would have been abolished and forbidden ages ago. ther would be minimum to no diseases like aids and hepatitis.the world today would be at complete peace under righteous laws.

but yes, thank you all, for the respect and kindness that you have all showed in answerign and explaining the answers to my questions, ma yAllah bless us all and strengthen our faiths. esselamu aleykum warahmatullah.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Salaam

this is what I was trying to clarify, how could you have entered the Baha'i faith, and by doing so accepted Islam and the holy Qur'an as a Revelation from Allah(swt), even while you did not know anything about the Qur'an or Islam? it would make more sense if one were to study the Qur'an, study the Injil, and study the Tawrat, and then study the Baha'i texts and understand it to mean what you do now, after already realizing that the previous revelations were Messages from God i ntheir ORIGINAL states.

It's a bit of a practical matter for Baha'is, though because we would not only have to study the Qu'ran first...but mostly everything else as well. I mean, we would all die of old age before we managed all that.

Some people become Baha'is and have studied the Qur'an, others become Baha'is and study it after, some never study at all.

It isn't universal for Muslims to study the text of the Jews and Christians, is it? I know that some Muslims do so, but the rest can believe in Islam just fine without doing so, as Islam (like the other religions) stands on its own even if you don't make the other connections to earlier messages.

[quote]now as for me reverting to Christianity after having been a Muslim, that would be different from a Baha'i accepting Islam after having been a Baha'i, because the holy Qur'an's message is contradictory to the current Bible's message, and this is becasue the Bible as we know it today, and the Christ(pbuh) that is portrayed today by the church, is completely contradictory to both the Quranic and Baha'i understanding of Christ and of the Bible too, to my knowledge.

Christianity teaches that Christ alone is mankind's savior,

Well, I'm aware that Christianity teaches this, but I haven't found reason from reading the IGospel to believe that is the only possible or even best understanding of what Christ said.

And surely you do not believe Christ actually meant that He alone was mankind's savior otherwise, else it would put you in serious conflict with Islam which teaches that Christ was a true prophet?

The message of the Gospel has the power to save. So does the message of the Qu'ran. Of course Baha'is believe that the message Baha'u'llah brought does as well.

But we do not believe it is the person doing the saving...it's the message. As our Writings say, worship the light and not the lamp, yes?

even while the Tawrat taught that no man can redeem another man, or give to God a ransom for him, yet Christianity teaches that the man, the prophet, Messiah son of Mary, is the sole savior of mankind, and that our redemption does not come from our deeds, or our faith in God, but from our acceptance of the am nand teh prophet Isa, son of Mary, and the event, that supposedly was him having been crucified and clearign he sins of humanity ,even though this entire theory is in contradiction ot the holy Qur'an and the Torah. so in Christianity, we are not responsible for our own deeds, unlike what you have told me the Baha'i faith teaches, which is also exactly what Allah revealed in the Qur'an, beign that we are al lresponsible for our own individual deeds,and that "No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" - to quote the Qur'an.

sola fide or "faith alone" is a minority view within Christianity. Christians do believe that they are responsible for their actions. Not only are they responsible for their actions, but they are responsible for their thoughts even should they not act upon them. It is a great duty to which they are called.

so me becoming a Christian after having been a Muslim would be to convert from belief to disbelief, and thats without mentioning the Christian sects which have strayed from monotheism and worshipped numerous singular "gods" or such a "god".

Actually for me to convert to Islam I would still be in a similar position. From my standpoint I would be forced to accept what I view as manmade doctrines that have nothing to do with what the Holy Qu'ran says, you see.

But this is nothing insulting to Islam. Every religion manages to accrue manmade doctrines in time, but that does nothing to make the original message less than perfect. Humans are not perfect -- the message still is.

And we Baha'is, too, will over time suffer the same fate of having manmade doctrines creep in. To what extent, who knows? But to read the Tablet of The Holy Mariner, which would seem to point to the next prophet, it does not seem like total faithfulness to this message of ours will be found then.

For now it is spiritual springtime, and I am determined to enjoy the breezes of God while I can. The problems of centuries to come are not things I will have to face.

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[Booko]

to inform the Jews, and that he is nothing more than a messenger of Allah, and a righteous man, to inform the Christians, and that our "Ilah is one Ilah", not 'The third of three",

Yes, the trinitarian doctrine is something that I believe was a human misunderstanding that Muhammad was specifically sent here to correct, and the Qu'ran could not be clearer about that. It's the job of prophets to correct where we err, as someone earlier has mentioned.

And no, you could convert to Christianity without having to be a trinitarian. There are some versions of Christianity that are not trinitarian, and still, there is nothing to stop you from deciding to be a Christian on your own, which would mean you focus on Christ first and ignore Muhammad altogether.

And that is what it would be like for me to convert to Islam. I would focus on Muhammad first, which is fine, because I do believe He was a prophet, but I would have to deny Baha'u'llah.

I would also have to accept certain doctrines common in Islam that I regard as honest human errors and misunderstandings, such as the idea that Muhammad was the last prophet ever. I respect that Muslims have this believe, and they are not unreasonable or completely without support to believe so, but just as there is another understanding of the nature of Christ aside from the Christian trinitarian one, so there is another possible understanding of the title Seal of the Prophets.

For me to conceive of the idea that God would put us here and then let us go grow up in some ways and go astray in others makes no sense. In time are we not ready for another lesson? Where we go astray, should we not expect our loving parent God to guide us back to the straight path? Muhammad did exactly that when He was so clear "Do not say God is three."

It seems very obvious to me that there are course corrections needed in Islam...not the message, but the way we fallible humans practice it. Where does Islam teach it's okay to blow up innocents in God's name? To abuse women and call it righteousness? To fight amonst each other? We have gone astray to be sure. The difference is that as a Baha'i I believe that God has sent us our course correction for this time. Whether Muslims all become Baha'is or remain Muslims, the correction will happen anyway, if God wills it.

After all, consider the dire straits in Christian lands in the past, the time we rightly call the Dark Ages. It was when Muhammad came with that message in the Qu'ran that his influence spread out and revived even Christianity indirectly, and then directly thorugh contact between Christians and Muslims. Were it not for Islam, there would've been no European Renaissance.

And as a Baha'i, I expect that the influence of the message that Baha'u'llah brought will slowly work its way across the globe, whether people join us directly or not. And Islam will have its Renaissance in its turn and get away from some of these destructive things that come of straying from the real message of Islam.

what I am trying to say is, Islam is the only religion, which is basically 'perfect', whic henjoins everythign good, and forbids everythign evil, which teaches and warns us to believe in one God, that there is no God but Him, and that to Him we all must surrender ourselves copmpletely as slaves, and that we must pray, to Him, repent, to him, doo good, FOR hIM,AND BE MERCIFUL for HIM, TO FREE SLAVES, FOR hIM, TO BE EQUITABLE TOWARDS EVERYONE, FOR hIM, and by carrying out these obligations, we would reach salvation and Allah will make our path to Paradise easy.

Ah, but the difference here is that Baha'is might say that all religions are perfect. . The message is perfect. The Messenger is perfect (uh, though not God, surely).

What is not perfect is humanity, so we do rather mess things up a bit. Still, even if the masses go astray, the individual is capable of finding that message and finding paradise. IT's just that it's a bit harder wading through the chaff sometimes.

but Islam and the Baha'i faith seem to be indentical in their roads to salvation. I see soem of you say you did study the holy Qur'an prior t oaccepting the Baha'i faith, and that maeks soem sense to me, although it matters why you studied it and for what reason.

I studied all religions mainly because I was looking to see how anyone could be so deceived by such silliness. (I was an athiest at the time.) The joke was, from that study I discovered that I was just looking at things wrongly, not seeing the whole picture, and that was what made the difference to send me from disbelief to belief.

that is teh difference between me becoming a Christian and you becoming a Muslim. if you acknowledge that "There is no god but The God(Allah SWT, and Muhammad(SAW) is His messenger" and you worship Allah, and the pray, and are dutiful to your parents, do not harm your neighbor, and you say what is good or keep quiet, then you may well be a Muslim, because tahts basically what a Muslim is, a slave of Allah, of God.

But if this is the definition of being a Muslim, then (hopefully) I already am one. But you see I've been told by Muslims right here that if I do not believe exactly the things about Islam that they do, then I do not really believe Islam. So, who should I believe?

I do what Baha'u'llah counsels all of us. Pray. Reflect on the verses. See through your own eyes and not through anothers.

We are all humans and prone to error. We can look to each other for guideposts, but the infallible guidepost is the Revelations of God that He has sent through His Messengers, when read with all humility and praying for guidance.

like one of my Muslim brothers or sisters pointed out earlier, all those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do good, and forbid evil, shall have their reward with their Lord, Allah. and from the look of it many Baha'is do these things, which is why I say the Baha'i faith and Islam are nearly indentical in their significant parts.

so if a Baha'i were to convert to Islam, it almost be as if he had stayed the same and not 'converted' at all.

In many ways, this is true. But there are some of those small but some would consider important matters that may well change. How as a woman would I have to dress? Would I be an equal partner with my husband or would he be my authority? Would my life in public be restricted? Yes we have a concept of modesty also, but it is not especially restrictive.

It reminds me of an online friend of mine, a Muslim. The question in the thread was "if you were the other gender for a day, what would you do?"

Her answer: Run naked through the mosque so we can talk about *men's* modesty for a change.

She's a very funny lady, that one.

And there are other ordinances as well...not things that would divide us surely, but as individuals we must decide which set to follow and follow them?

As a Muslims, there are many similar ordinances that Christ came with, but Islam allows multiple wives and divorce where Christ does not. Which do you choose?

As a Baha'i, I cannot marry unless all parents agree. God has told me this. Do I turn my back on that because it would be easier to follow Islam, which has no such law (at least as far as I know). Should a Muslim go according to Baha'i law that forbids arranged marriages because the Baha'i law is easier?

In daily life there are many such quandaries. Truly I think while we may take guidance from any of the religions, as part of the individual's daily life it is much safer to just pick one and follow those laws, because each of those Messages came designed to be in one package. And doing too much picking and choosing...no, the picking and choosing is God's place, not ours.

I do respect the Baha'i faith and the Baha'is whho follow it that I have met so far.

I hope that as the world becomes more connected and we meet each other, even though we may live at a distance, the peoples of the earth will find more understanding that there is no "other" ... there is just "us."

And I pray that the horrible impression of Islam current in the West will be cleared up. What some people do is their own responsibility and if that varies from the message of Islam, well it is not fair-minded to blame the Message for the actions of some people. And every religion calls people to be fair-minded in their judgement. That never seems to change.
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