A piece from the Baptist Press (Jesus, ritual, Earth, Kingdom)

[Booko]

3. In the local congregation, patriarchy (indeed, all "archy") is shunned. God has no gender, and neither husband nor wife has a dominant role in the marriage. The congregation has no pastor; they just work by consultation -- a beautiful fit with our cultural enthusiasm for shared governance, enablement, facilitation and group ownership.

According to normative Christianity, God is a Spirit and thus has no gender. BIble texts refer to God as "He" and so do ours. I'm not sure what the problem is here, particularly since LDS is often roundly criticized for believing that God has a body. This is confusing.

We have a cultural enthusiasm for shared governance in this country? Maybe. Anyway, my parents have served on the Consistory before, which is all about shared governance, so again, I don't quite get what problem he has with us over it. The Baptists I know are always cracking very funny jokes about the plethora of committees, the funniest being about the existence of a Committee for Committees. Personally I think group consultation has many advantages.

We don't have group ownership, if he's referring to tossing everything into one financial pool. It's not clear that's what he means. But the early Chrsitians did, as recorded in the NT, so again I'm not sure what the problem would be with this. There seems precedent for it in early Christianity.



4. Religion must defer to science. No, religion doesn't defer to science. Science has its place in life, which is to further understanding of the physical world. Religion has its place in life, which is to foster spiritual education of humanity and bring people together in love and friendship. The problems come in when science tries to dictate religion and religion tries to dictate to science. Rather than anyone dicatating anything, it would make more sense to work together.

Even Einstein said that: Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. That's all we've said.


(continued)

[Booko]

5. The afterlife isn't particularly frightening. Baha'is don't say much about the hereafter.

We have both the carrot and the stick as motivators. That we don't emphasize the stick and ignore the carrot is just to be balanced in one's approach. Even a casual search of Baha'i Writings will turn up the use of the term "hell."

Actually we have a great deal to say about the hereafter, but our focus is in the here and now, and if we act rightly the hereafter will take care of itself. Well, the subject of the hereafter might make an interesting thread in itself.

6. Good religion does good works. With over a thousand development projects worldwide, Baha'is are a pleasing sight to the lost. Literacy training, tree planting and other social ministries are so much more fetching than evangelism and prophetic preaching. The Jimmy Carters, and not the Billy Grahams, get the Nobel Prizes.

I should hope it does good works. As St. James said, faith without works is dead. Christians are called to service and so are we. I'd rather we learn to work together on these sorts of projects. It's certainly possible. We've worked with one Baptist Church here delivering public health services to indigent immigrants in our area, and we seemed to do fine. The pastor was skeptical at first, well he doesn't know us, and asked what our motivation was, so I explained that just as Christ commanded His followers to assist the widow, the orphan, the hungry and the poor, so we are commanded. He had no problem understanding that.

I'm not sure what his point is about Carter and Graham. There is no Nobel Prize for "great evangelist" so why would Billy Graham get one? He may inspire others to do great works however, and those may well get Nobel Prizes. If he thinks the Nobel Prize committee should have a great religious leader category, uh...maybe he could take it up with them? I'm not understanding his point here.

I'm not sure why he would think we should take up evangelism. Our teachings forbid proselytizing. And prophetic preaching? Uh...why would a religion that lacks an eschatology worry about prophetic preaching?

(continued)

[Booko]

7. A New World Order is desirable.

Well, yes, rather like an EU (whatever its growing pains) is preferable to 2 World Wars that killed millions.

8. Racial diversity is a major goal. Bahai's encourage interracial marriage, and their youth Diversity Dance Workshop is well known for its convicting "Racism Dance." They perfectly capture the spirit of a day when Betty Crocker has evolved through eight images from a unambiguously Anglo look in 1936 to an olive-skinned, computer-morphed young woman of today, as likely Italian as Iranian as Hispanic.

Uh ...okay, so what is the problem with this? Moses had an interracial marriage, so I kinda don't get his point here.

Also, our idea of diversity is not for everyone to look brown and forget their ancestry. Take a look at some Baha'i sites and everyone doesn't look like an olive-skinned computer morphed Italian/Hispanic.

[Booko]

9. The environment is a high priority. The founder said all men should feel abashed as they walk upon the earth, aware that it is the source of their strength under God. Baha'is were the only religious non-governmental group to address the plenary session of the Rio Conference in 1992. Many groups, from the Sierra Club to the Christian Society of the Green Cross, join the Baha'is in opposing such projects as Arctic National Wildlife Refuge drilling.

Yes, the environment is a high priority. This can be shown by the fact that the Baha'i International Community was the only religious NGO to address the Rio Summit, as the author mentions. Baha'is are all over the planet and we speak with one voice, and in a way that is not going to denigrate those "other" religious groups, because that would be against our religion anyway.

Is it a problem that Christians and Baha'is join together to oppose ANWR? This sounds more like a political beef.

Here's the passage he is referencing:

By the righteousness of God! Idle fancies have debarred men from the Horizon of Certitude, and vain imaginings withheld them from the Choice Sealed Wine. In truth I say, and for the sake of God I declare: This Servant, this Wronged One, is abashed to claim for Himself any existence whatever, how much more those exalted grades of being! Every man of discernment, while walking upon the earth, feeleth indeed abashed, inasmuch as he is fully aware that the thing which is the source of his prosperity, his wealth, his might, his exaltation, his advancement and power is, as ordained by God, the very earth which is trodden beneath the feet of all men. There can be no doubt that whoever is cognizant of this truth, is cleansed and sanctified from all pride, arrogance, and vainglory. Whatever hath been said hath come from God. Unto this, He, verily, hath borne, and beareth now, witness, and He, in truth, is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed. - Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

10. Traditional sexual morality is essential.

Well yes, it's essential for us, because it's what we are called to follow. I'm not sure why he would think this is such an advantage, though. Many people in this country have great difficulties with our teachings on the matter of the proper place of sex in life.

I'm unsure what a "homosexual agenda" is anyway.

I thought there were multiple agendas at the very least. One of those is to simply be treated with the simple decency and respect that is every human's right. When it comes to that "homosexual agenda" we would be totally on board with that.

(continued)

[Booko]

Well, first, their faith needs a public relations makeover, downplaying images of the founders, what with their fezzes, turbans and long beards. They need to swap the weird name for something like "Consultation of Glory." And it wouldn't hurt to showcase a celebrity Baha'i or two, the sort of thing the Scientologists do with John Travolta and Tom Cruise.

Uh...okay...so Christians should ditch the long hair and beard and robe that Christ wears and dress Him up in a 3-piece suit? I don't get it, like I said earlier.

Also, again check out the Baha'i websites. They are not full of images of people in fezzes turbans and long beards. Mostly they're full of images of people all over the world being...people.

I think Consultation of Glory would be a horrible name. It would be abbreviated CoG and we would be mistaken for machine parts or the Church of God.


Hm...celebrity Baha'is. There are well-known Baha'is, but why would we do that?

The point is for people to follow Baha'u'llah, not celebrities. How would such a "worldly" take on PR be of benefit to a religion?

(continued)

[Booko]

What better time than Christmas to reassert the divinity, uniqueness, exclusivity and necessity of Christ, to rehearse the fact that the Jesus in the manger will not share his glory with Zoroaster, Mohammed or Buddha.

Christ had His own glory and whether others did or not will not and cannot ever diminish His glory.

Here's what Baha'u'llah said on the subject of Christ's glory:

XXXVI. Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 85)

Baha'is are sensitive folks in a nation obsessed with sensitivity. Well,
Unfortunately, they promote insensitivity to the plain teaching of the Bible, that Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Lacking this knowledge, they may have a sensitive Christmas, but they won't have a merry one.

I have a merry Christmas every year with my extended family, who celebrate it. Is a festivity a reason to believe in Christ? Myself, I think there are far more important reasons than that.

Well, there's my point by point, Katz. I hope I didn't get too long winded for you.

In general terms, his descriptions of our beliefs are accurate. But I suspect he lacks much depth there, as there are some misconceptions that would otherwise be easily avoided.

His church is very close to the House of Worship. Odds are he's run across Baha'is, but probably for not much more than casual conversation, so it's natural enough he would be off in some ways.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

What a maroon.

I have often remarked that I don't know what the big deal is about "Baha'i" being unfamiliar.

I'm sure a Roman in the 1st century thought "Christian" sounded unfamiliar as well. As we know, unfamiliarity with a name was not enough to prevent the spread of the Gospel.