Self Defence and the Baha'i Faith (Jesus Christ, ritual, punishment, Earth)

[BruceDLimber]

Monat and Art, Allah-u-Abha!

I can't say whether the law has changed or not, but I have noncombatant status and so served until 35 years ago.

At that time, the law was that only chaplains and medics are noncombatants.

This may not actually have changed, but obviously, any medic who picks up a gun immediately voids his or her previous noncombatant status.

And Art, save for a special exception, working in ANY other military job category is combatant because one can be ordered at any time to pick up a gun!

The special exception (which again applied to me--Booko seems to think I do this on purpose! :-S )--is that a noncombatant is permitted to work in any position (other than chaplain or medic) not actually involving weapons PROVIDED he or she explicitly agrees. For reasons I won't get into, when my noncombatant status was approved, I was asked to work in Base Publishing and agreed, serving thereafter as Base Forms Designer and Base Publications Editor.

(This had an unexpected benefit because later on, a shipment to Viet Nam came down for me. Ordinarily, I would have been long gone with no say in the matter! But because: 1) I had noncombatant status and 2) I was working in a technically combatant position (publishing), they would have had to retrain me as a medic in order to send me, it being a combat zone. Since there were unwilling to spend the money necessary to train me, the shipment was red-lined.)

Every now and then, things work out!

Peace,

Bruce

[arthra]

Here's the guidance from the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the UNited States on the issue of a military servicemen becoming a Baha'i while in service:

"A person who becomes a Bahá'í while in service, and who does not already have non-combatant status has an obligation to his government to finish out his term of duty as he has honorably committed himself to do. However, it may be possible to obtain de facto non-combatant status by transferring to a selected duty which does not call for physical fighting; such transfer should be effected in such fashion as not to impair relationships with responsible superiors, and without there being any question of his willingness to serve his country without regard for personal safety, comfort, or type of service to which he may be assigned."

There some more material to read but the source is
http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?f...e&language=All

- Art

[Jonathan Rex]

How can any religion be intertwined with patriotism? This goes for any religion (I just happen to be asking it in this forum).

Let us say that you are Bahai and you live in Israel and another is Bahai and they live in Italy. One day a war comes about and both are drafted into different armies. Suddenly two Bahai must fight one another (or assist others in fighting the other even in a non-comatant role) and therefore patriotism (a divisive institution in the first place) divides the religious adherants against one another, if not directly than indirectly.

Religion and state have no business being intertwined. If you are for peace, then military service is not an option, no matter what role you play in the military. There is nothing peaceful about the Military. (Just my thoughts)

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Rex

How can any religion be intertwined with patriotism? This goes for any religion (I just happen to be asking it in this forum).

Let us say that you are Bahai and you live in Israel and another is Bahai and they live in Italy. One day a war comes about and both are drafted into different armies. Suddenly two Bahai must fight one another (or assist others in fighting the other even in a non-comatant role) and therefore patriotism (a divisive institution in the first place) divides the religious adherants against one another, if not directly than indirectly.

Religion and state have no business being intertwined. If you are for peace, then military service is not an option, no matter what role you play in the military. There is nothing peaceful about the Military. (Just my thoughts)

Baha'is are non-combatants as well as non-partisan and our aim is to help build the foundations for a world civilization... So we are neutral politically and don't involve ourselves in partisanship matters. There is a well known Baha'i principle that we should be world citizens and that our palnet is one country so while Baha'is can be justly proud of the country in which we live we are not nationalists. This is probably why the Nazis outlawed the Baha'i Faith...we were too universalist for them.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Rex

How can any religion be intertwined with patriotism? This goes for any religion (I just happen to be asking it in this forum).

Let us say that you are Bahai and you live in Israel and another is Bahai and they live in Italy. One day a war comes about and both are drafted into different armies. Suddenly two Bahai must fight one another (or assist others in fighting the other even in a non-comatant role) and therefore patriotism (a divisive institution in the first place) divides the religious adherants against one another, if not directly than indirectly.

Religion and state have no business being intertwined. If you are for peace, then military service is not an option, no matter what role you play in the military. There is nothing peaceful about the Military. (Just my thoughts)

"Of old it hath been revealed: "Love of one's country is an element of the Faith of God." The Tongue of Grandeur hath, however, in the day of His manifestation proclaimed: "It is not his to boast who loveth his country, but it is his who loveth the world." Through the power released by these exalted words He hath lent a fresh impulse, and set a new direction, to the birds of men's hearts, and hath obliterated every trace of restriction and limitation from God's holy Book."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 95)

"The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath bestowed the government of the earth upon the kings. To none is given the right to act in any manner that would run counter to the considered views of them who are in authority. That which He hath reserved for Himself are the cities of men's hearts; and of these the loved ones of Him Who is the Sovereign Truth are, in this Day, as the keys."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 241)

"Bahá'ís are Not Conscientious Objectors
"Our position as Bahá'ís is not that we won't obey our Government or support the country if attacked, it is that we do not believe in, or wish to part in, killing our fellow-men. We are not conscientious objectors at all, we will serve, but wish, as there is a provision in the law in the U.S.A. covering our attitude, to be classified as non-combatants. If you need to consult on this matter, you should refer to the N.S.A., as this question continually arises, and they can give you advice which will be the most accurate and applicable to present conditions."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 15, 1952)"
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 406)

"Bahá'ís Are Not Asking to be Given a Safe Berth During Hours of National Crises
"Regarding your question about military service, the Guardian sees no reason why the Bahá'í in question should not bring a test case, and press the matter. It is now, since he has become a follower of Bahá'u'lláh, against this conscience to kill his fellow-men; and he should have the right to explain his position and ask to be exempted from combatant service. During the hearing of such cases, the Bahá'ís should make it absolutely clear that we do not fear being placed in danger, and are not asking to be given a safe berth in hours of national crisis -- quite the contrary -- any dangerous service that Bahá'ís can render their fellow-men during the agonies of war, they should be anxious to accept."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the British Isles, February 25, 1951) 410
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 409)

Enlisting in military service in time of peace is an act of individual conscience in current applications.

"Letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice, dated April 5, 1982, in Lights of Guidance, p. 253
MILITARY SERVICE
General Principles
Bahá'ís recognize the right and duty of governments to use force for the maintenance of law and order and to protect their people. Thus, for a Bahá'í, the shedding of blood for such a purpose is not necessarily essentially wrong. The Bahá'í Faith draws a
very definite distinction between the duty of an individual to forgive and "to be killed rather than to kill" and the duty of society to uphold justice. This matter is explained by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in Some Answered Questions. In the present condition of the world Bahá'ís try to keep themselves out of the internecine conflicts that are raging among their fellow men and to avoid shedding blood in such struggles, but this does not mean that we are absolute pacifists.
Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated February 9, 1967, to a National Spiritual Assembly"
(Compilations, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities)

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Monat and Art, Allah-u-Abha!

I can't say whether the law has changed or not, but I have noncombatant status and so served until 35 years ago.

At that time, the law was that only chaplains and medics are noncombatants.

This may not actually have changed, but obviously, any medic who picks up a gun immediately voids his or her previous noncombatant status.

And Art, save for a special exception, working in ANY other military job category is combatant because one can be ordered at any time to pick up a gun!

The special exception (which again applied to me--Booko seems to think I do this on purpose! :-S )--is that a noncombatant is permitted to work in any position (other than chaplain or medic) not actually involving weapons PROVIDED he or she explicitly agrees. For reasons I won't get into, when my noncombatant status was approved, I was asked to work in Base Publishing and agreed, serving thereafter as Base Forms Designer and Base Publications Editor.

(This had an unexpected benefit because later on, a shipment to Viet Nam came down for me. Ordinarily, I would have been long gone with no say in the matter! But because: 1) I had noncombatant status and 2) I was working in a technically combatant position (publishing), they would have had to retrain me as a medic in order to send me, it being a combat zone. Since there were unwilling to spend the money necessary to train me, the shipment was red-lined.)

Every now and then, things work out!

Peace,

Bruce

Bruce,

My father was a medic in World War Two serving in the Pacific in seventeen amphibious operations.

His commanding officer told his medics that they coulod not be issued weapons for self-defense and then pointed to a stack of carbines and automatic pistols. He said: "These weapons and ammunition have been declared surplus to military needs and whoever picks them up for self-defense is welcome to them."

The Japanese did not recognize Geneva Conventions, neither did the North Koreans or the North Vietnamese and medics frequently armed themselves when underfire. In firefights medics are required to defend their charges with their own lives if necessary.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

I give a great deal of respect to Isaiah.

"Deny not Thy loved ones, O my Lord, the sweet savors of this Day whereon the mysteries of Thy name, the Self-Subsisting, were unraveled, and all that had been enshrined within the treasuries of Thy wisdom was revealed. This is the Day, O my Lord, whereon every atom of the earth hath been made to vibrate and to cry out: "O Thou Who art the Revealer of signs and the King of creation! I, verily, perceive the fragrance of Thy presence. Methinks Thou hast revealed Thyself, and unlocked the door of reunion with Thee before all who are in Thy heaven and all who are on Thy earth. I am persuaded through the fragrance of Thy robe, O my Lord, that the world hath been honored through Thy presence, and hath inhaled the sweet smell of Thy meeting. I 280 know not, however, O Thou the Beloved of the world and the Desire of the nations, the place wherein the throne of Thy majesty hath been established, nor the seat which hath been made Thy footstool, and been illumined with the splendors of the light of Thy face."
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 279)

As to the Book of Yeshhayahu, here it is from the Tanakh:
"65,23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for terror; for they are the seed blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 65,24 And it shall come to pass that, before they call, I will answer, and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 65,25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, saith the LORD. {S} 66,1 Thus saith the LORD: The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool; where is the house that ye may build unto Me? And where is the place that may be My resting-place? 66,2 For all these things hath My hand made, and so all these things came to be, saith the LORD; but on this man will I look, even on him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at My word."
(Nev'im (Prophets), Yeshayahu (Isaiah))

Baha`i's do not make sacrifice of flesh, blood, incense, etc...we make sacrifice of ourselves as servants to the rest of mankind.

Regards,
Scott

[CaptainXeroid]

***MOD POST***

Several off topic posts have been deleted from this thread. Future posts will be on the topic and off other people, or they will be deleted and warnings issued.

Please review the RF Forum Rules with special emphasis on # 8 - #11 which relate to DIR, Discuss Individual Religions since that's where this thread is located, BEFORE posting here.

If there are questions, please feel free to PM me or any moderator.