A question (ritual, gospel, tradition, contradiction, America)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by 9harmony

Hi Booko,

shouldn't that be 500,000 years?

i hope you're well.

-Amy

Yes, it should! Sheesh, nothing like being off by an order of magnitude.

Thanks...I'll go back and fix that now.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Elvendon

I see. I do like prophecies - they give you something to look forward to But it's quite understandable not worrying about long-term things Otherwise we'd have to start worrying about the price of plutonium in the 3400's, which is not a good thing ><.

It doesn't seem to pay to get too far ahead of the game, prophetically speaking, does it?

There is some material that deals generally with the shape of things to come during this transition, and I suppose those could loosely be called prophecies as well.

Unfortunately, I'm rarely that sensible hehe

Like Alice, I also try to think of one impossible thing every day.

I'm curious at to what these "cycles" are... can you elaborate?

The whole notion of cycles would be really familiar to Hindus, I think. But generally we look at human history, and religious history especially, as something that goes in cycles.

Each religion has phases it goes through. Some of the Writings refer to these phases as if they were seasons. "Spiritual Springtime" and the like.

Each religion goes through a period of early growth, where the benefit to humanity is not obvious, and the extent of that religion would not be obvious. Consider Christianity a mere century or two after Christ's Crucifixion. Who could imagine then that it would be the most widespread religion in human history? Who could have foreseen that it would be the cause of a rise of civilization? Early Christians were so often ridiculed for being an obscure sect of no importance. Haha, well time tells, doesn't it?

The "summer" is when the religion first attains prominence, and the full effect is felt.

After a while, the "fall" inevitably hits, when humans desiring power and wealth start using things for their own ends.

In the "winter" the religion is often more of a detriment than an asset to humanity. This is the period of any religion where you see interreligious warfare, oppression, and the like. This period does NOT mean the religion is worthless. It means the religion has become corrupt. With no insult to Islam or to individual Muslims, the objective observer would have to admit that right now is one of those periods for Islam. Christianity went through such a period some centuries ago.

During the "winter" period, when things are darkest, is when a Prophet appears. They have no need to appear in the summer, when things are going fine.

They are needed most where and when things are darkest. To that end, we believe God sent us a Prophet-Herald to Iran in the person of the Bab. The more you read about what Iran was like in the mid-1800s, the more you'd agree just how spiritually dark it was. Today is actually an improvement.

Much like how Muhammad viewed his predecessors... except, without the retcon

"Retcon"?

*nods* I'm glad that wikibrowse I did before posting wasn't entirely wasted

The stuff on Wiki seems pretty accurate.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Elvendon

Oh? Well that is a shame. Your theology and ethics are just beautiful as is your ecumenical spirit. Unfortunately, I'm far too much into my bread and wine

So you take what you can from Baha'u'llah's teachings. Many people do that. Some are called "Friends of the Faith." And some get so close I get goofy and say they are "practicing without a license."

I often suspect a touch of gratuitous interpretation may have been going on, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim that the messages of the Bible have been obscured by such changes. My Christian response is to say God knew what would happen and worked his message accordingly ^^

I don't believe the message is ever totally obscured, and certainly not on the individual level. Even in the worst of times and the midst of corruption, you still see saintly individuals in Christian history.

I would agree that God knew what would happen. It was for this reason that Christ warned His followers that there would be a falling away. The Tenach has similar verses along those lines, of a time when things would become very bad, and then Moshiach would appear.

I've often noticed the stream of practicality in all religions. Pork being forbidden due to it's high spoilage rate in the middle-eastern climate etc.

It's interesting to note that alcohol was not initially forbidden in Islam. But some of the early Muslims kept showing up to the mosque for prayers while in their cups, so Muhammad cut them off.

I can see why alcohol was never forbidden in Christianity. Beer, wine, ale and mead were for a long time much safer to drink than the water.

Now, we have water treatment plants. The harm outweighs the benefit.

That's really great! This is a real acid test for me - I dislike it when religions are too centralised or dominated by the culture of one ethnic group - it's part of the reason I could never convert to Islam - too many Arabic extras.

In my early reading of the history of Islam, I found it really interesting to see just how many of the practices of Islam were really practices of the pagan Arabs that were just holdovers. Whether they should have remained part of Islam is...debatable.

I for one tend to draw upon my pagan origins for ideas to do with prayer style, location, description and imagery. I would far prefer to see God as expressed in the landscape, in a natural object or a religious icon as a focus for devotion, than in a beautiful piece of calligraphy or architecture for example.

Some of the Native American Baha'is would agree with you. They have not discarded everything their ancestors learned for the sake of joining this religion. Rather, they have gained a deeper understanding of their ancestor's religion.

I would say the same thing about my belief and understanding of Christ as well. As a Christian, I can't say I had a very deep faith in Christ. As a Baha'i, I would not give that up for anything. I understand the sacrifice He made much much more than I ever did as a Christian. As always, ymmv.

I see... I think I'll go look those letters up then, along with all of the Baha'i texts... I doubt I'll convert or anything, I just find other faiths interesting.

I do as well, which is one of the great things about this place. It gives us a friendly atmosphere to ask questions and find out more about the tapestry of human belief.

As for the letters, they are interesting in and of themselves, but even more so when you look at the history that surrounded them. Of the letters Baha'u'llah sent, only 2 gov'ts received them well and sent a polite response. The US was one of them. Queen Victoria was the other. Both of those gov'ts are still intact. The rest of the responses were rude, to say the least, and none of those gov'ts have survived.

Now, that may well be a post hoc fallacy at work, but it's a curious bit of info even though not "proof" of anything.

Ah that's very clever. How like God to play word games with us

As I'm told by those who can read the Bible in it's original languages, there are a lot of jokes and puns we miss in translation.

Indeed, many Christians do tend towards the "Jesus returning in an obvious way" eschatology including myself.

It's the most common view, from what I've seen.
That has always puzzled me, given the nature of Christ's First coming. It seems to be the exact mistake made by the people of His time.

I'm not so sure about this. I do agree with the general image of a subtle god... but the tone of Jesus' sayings in the Gospels do seem to me to clearly point to an obvious return. There is a degree of ambiguity I concede however

Some of them point to an obvious return, and some do not. His remark about returning like a "thief in the night" does not imply an obvious return. Theives are not known for announcing themselves.

Also, the verse that is translated about Him returning "on the clouds" could be better rendered "in the clouds." Again, that different preposition changes everything. It implies being obscured and not obvious.

Also, the story of John the Baptist being the Return of Elijah is suggestive.

[Elvendon]

Originally Posted by Booko

It doesn't seem to pay to get too far ahead of the game, prophetically speaking, does it?

There is some material that deals generally with the shape of things to come during this transition, and I suppose those could loosely be called prophecies as well.

Indeedy. No wonder such things are a gift from God

Like Alice, I also try to think of one impossible thing every day.

Hehe that's one crazy book... I've never gotten around to reading all of it though

The whole notion of cycles would be really familiar to Hindus, I think. But generally we look at human history, and religious history especially, as something that goes in cycles.

Each religion has phases it goes through. Some of the Writings refer to these phases as if they were seasons. "Spiritual Springtime" and the like.

Each religion goes through a period of early growth, where the benefit to humanity is not obvious, and the extent of that religion would not be obvious. Consider Christianity a mere century or two after Christ's Crucifixion. Who could imagine then that it would be the most widespread religion in human history? Who could have foreseen that it would be the cause of a rise of civilization? Early Christians were so often ridiculed for being an obscure sect of no importance. Haha, well time tells, doesn't it?

The "summer" is when the religion first attains prominence, and the full effect is felt.

After a while, the "fall" inevitably hits, when humans desiring power and wealth start using things for their own ends.

In the "winter" the religion is often more of a detriment than an asset to humanity. This is the period of any religion where you see interreligious warfare, oppression, and the like. This period does NOT mean the religion is worthless. It means the religion has become corrupt. With no insult to Islam or to individual Muslims, the objective observer would have to admit that right now is one of those periods for Islam. Christianity went through such a period some centuries ago.

During the "winter" period, when things are darkest, is when a Prophet appears. They have no need to appear in the summer, when things are going fine.

They are needed most where and when things are darkest. To that end, we believe God sent us a Prophet-Herald to Iran in the person of the Bab. The more you read about what Iran was like in the mid-1800s, the more you'd agree just how spiritually dark it was. Today is actually an improvement.

It must have been bad!

Christianity did produce a reformer during it's darkest night, though I'd hardly call Martin Luther a prophet.

Personally, I suspect that Christianity needs a revolution still. Whether it will be characterised by us all converted to Baha'ullah's or some other prophetic figure's teachings, or a purely Christian leader getting us under one banner again, I don't know; but I suspect (and hope) change is immanent, so many "cultural Christians" appear to be so isolated, and there appears to be so many gulfs within the church...

"Retcon"?

It basically means when a writer changes the history described in his or her work, replacing the old sequence of events (deemed incorrect) with a new set (deemed correct.) It's normally used referring to fictional narratives, so it's use here was rather tongue in cheek

The stuff on Wiki seems pretty accurate.

That's always nice to know. The wiki on Celtic Christianity is very good on the historical side, but depressingly limited on information about the modern revival.

[Elvendon]

Originally Posted by Booko

So you take what you can from Baha'u'llah's teachings. Many people do that. Some are called "Friends of the Faith." And some get so close I get goofy and say they are "practicing without a license."

Hehe, that sounds quite good. I agree with most of your ethics and so on, so "Friend of the Faith" probably pins me down quite well

I don't believe the message is ever totally obscured, and certainly not on the individual level. Even in the worst of times and the midst of corruption, you still see saintly individuals in Christian history.

I would agree that God knew what would happen. It was for this reason that Christ warned His followers that there would be a falling away. The Tenach has similar verses along those lines, of a time when things would become very bad, and then Moshiach would appear.

*nods* I tend to believe that all faiths, despite contradictions, contain valid paths. I just think that Christianity happens to be the best one for me.

It's interesting to note that alcohol was not initially forbidden in Islam. But some of the early Muslims kept showing up to the mosque for prayers while in their cups, so Muhammad cut them off.

I can see why alcohol was never forbidden in Christianity. Beer, wine, ale and mead were for a long time much safer to drink than the water.

Now, we have water treatment plants. The harm outweighs the benefit.

Hmm I still think communion wine is okay... otherwise it's not a particuarly authentic commemoration. It's bad enough we can't use bread and wine from ingredients from that area :-/

In my early reading of the history of Islam, I found it really interesting to see just how many of the practices of Islam were really practices of the pagan Arabs that were just holdovers. Whether they should have remained part of Islam is...debatable.

Yes I found that. It seems the eventual shape many religions take is highly dependent upon their ambient culture. Which is why I like Christianity - it has a tendancy to locally encorporate ideologies and symbolism from the communities it evangelises. Something that many on the far right forget.

Some of the Native American Baha'is would agree with you. They have not discarded everything their ancestors learned for the sake of joining this religion. Rather, they have gained a deeper understanding of their ancestor's religion.

I would say the same thing about my belief and understanding of Christ as well. As a Christian, I can't say I had a very deep faith in Christ. As a Baha'i, I would not give that up for anything. I understand the sacrifice He made much much more than I ever did as a Christian. As always, ymmv.

I always think that it is so important that we don't throw babies out with bathwater... I'm glad you agree

I do as well, which is one of the great things about this place. It gives us a friendly atmosphere to ask questions and find out more about the tapestry of human belief.

As for the letters, they are interesting in and of themselves, but even more so when you look at the history that surrounded them. Of the letters Baha'u'llah sent, only 2 gov'ts received them well and sent a polite response. The US was one of them. Queen Victoria was the other. Both of those gov'ts are still intact. The rest of the responses were rude, to say the least, and none of those gov'ts have survived.

Now, that may well be a post hoc fallacy at work, but it's a curious bit of info even though not "proof" of anything.

That's very interesting. Indeed, it isn't proof, but it's indicative, perhaps, of the tolerant social climate that was developing in the two nations - which has enabled them to survive the modern age methinks

As I'm told by those who can read the Bible in it's original languages, there are a lot of jokes and puns we miss in translation.

The one I always remember is the "camel through the eye of a needle" one - I know it's more an icidence of slang rather than a proper pun, but I always think it illustrates the problems with translation ^^

It's the most common view, from what I've seen.
That has always puzzled me, given the nature of Christ's First coming. It seems to be the exact mistake made by the people of His time.

I've always thought that since God has done the softly, softly approach once, why do it again?

Some of them point to an obvious return, and some do not. His remark about returning like a "thief in the night" does not imply an obvious return. Theives are not known for announcing themselves.

Also, the verse that is translated about Him returning "on the clouds" could be better rendered "in the clouds." Again, that different preposition changes everything. It implies being obscured and not obvious.

Also, the story of John the Baptist being the Return of Elijah is suggestive.

Right. It's also worringly indicative of transmigration of the soul - a doctrine the church kicked out milennia ago.

However, the thief in the night passage strikes me as being more like saying "it will be a surprise" rather than "he won't be announced" - this fits with the general idea presented in scripture that no-one knows the precise date of the second coming. But however, it's all about what spin you put on it

Also, didn't Jesus himself deny he was Elijah, which would mean that the two men couldn't both have been manifestations?

[arthra]

Probably I think the Thief in the Night suggests people should always have been expecting the Return.

The Return of Elijah was a prophecy you'll recall and John the Baptist while not a Manifestation was to prepare the way for Jesus at least that's what most Christians believe as I understand it.

Shoghi Effendi made reference to the Bab and Elijah as follows:

"With the transference of the remains of the Báb—Whose advent marks the return of the Prophet Elijah—to Mt. Carmel, and their interment in that holy mountain, not far from the cave of that Prophet Himself..."

So there are supposed to be some sites on Mount Carmel that were believed to be where Elijah himself stayed and near where Elijah overcame the Baalim... The Bab we believe had the role or function of John the Baptist in preparing the way for Baha'u'llah.

Abdul-Baha mentions John the Baptist also:

Jesus Christ, speaking of John the Baptist, declared he was Elias. When John the Baptist was questioned, "Art thou Elias?" he said, "I am not." These two statements are apparently contradictory, but in reality they do not contradict. The light is one light. The light which illumined this lamp last night is illuminating it tonight. This does not mean that the identical rays of light have reappeared but the virtues of illumination. The light which revealed itself through the glass reveals itself again so that we can say the light of this evening is the light of last evening relighted.