Baha'i and UU! (Jesus, ritual, Moses, Buddhism, beliefs)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by The Truth

I didn't understand what you mean excatly. Anyway, in islam, we believe that all the prophets and messengers of God were muslims because islam is to submit to the will of God. Also, we believe that all messages before islam were for specfic time and specfic people but the last message of Islam which God sent Mohammed "peace be upon him" by it is for all human being till the end of this life.

Any comment?

I think Popeyesays covered it already?

First of all, this one you mentioned is part of a verse and you should say God said but not Mohammed said and i have no idea how many times i have to repeat that God said these words but not Mohammed.

Yes, but if I do it that way, then I get complaints from people who take the "scholarly" route and want me to say Muhammad said. I can't win.

Prophet Mohammed didn't condemn them for following Moses and Jesus but the same as people followed Moses, they should follow Jesus, and the same as they followed Jesus, they must follow Mohammed as well. Some of them didn't accept islam and when they were asking prophet Mohammed to judge among them, he was using their own scriptures.

We have some rather similar scriptures ourselves, addressed to those who followed earlier Messengers. Our view of those religions that came before is pretty much the same as yours, other than we've gone another step.

About the verse you mentioned, it was about one of the early muslims who was close to prophet Mohammed and he was a christian before accepting islam. His name was Salman Al-farsi and he asked prophet Mohammed about his friends who died before they become muslims, before Mohammed "peace be upon him" appear. He explained for him how much they were good people, worshipping God and they would become muslims if they got the chance to meet prophet Mohammed. prophet Mohammed answered him that they are in hell because they are not muslims, then God told prophet Mohammed that verse you mentioned about people who died before they hear about islam and that they have nothing to fear.

Thanks for the background! I so rarely get the sort of context I'd like reading the Qu'ran.

While it's true that it would have been preferable for Jews and Christians to follow Muhammad, who was after all predicted in their texts (at least in the Christian ones), is there anything in Muhammad's treatment of Jews or Christians that would lead us to believe that they were going to rot in gehenna because they would not accept Muhammad (pbuh)?

After that, this verse revealed to prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him":

[3:85] Anyone who accepts other than Submission (islam) as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers.

I'm not debating here because it's the Baha'i faith forum but i believe that Islam is the last message for all time and i respect your veiw about yours.

I think it's one of those things that we'd have to agree to disagree on. Your understanding of "Seal of the Prophets" and ours differs, just as our understanding of "Son of God" differs from the usual Christian one, eh?

As for whether Baha'u'llah really is a prophet or not, I suppose this not being in debate forum would have to be somewhere else. And we'd be getting into Islamic eschatology I suppose.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by Booko

Yes, but if I do it that way, then I get complaints from people who take the "scholarly" route and want me to say Muhammad said. I can't win.

What does that supposed to mean dear Booko?

Does it mean in case an athiest have problem with the Torah and Injil so you gonna deny them as the word of God, if a christian have problem with believing in Quran so you gonna say the book of Mohammed and you gonna go with the flow to make everyone happy and denying God's right to mention it's his words but not Mohammed's?

Do you think it's logic to deny God or God's words to make human beings around you happy?

You remind me of an old story about a funny character in arabic books called "Juha". One day he was riding his donkey in the street and his child was walking beside him so the people said what a cruel !!! he let his small kid walk and he ride the donkey. So, he allow his child to ride it and he was walking beside the donkey so people in the street again said: What a cruel kid, he let his old father walk and he ride the donkey even though he is young. Then his father order him to walk beside the donkey so people laughed at them saying: they walk beside the donkey and no one ride it. Then the father, "Juha" suggested to his son to ride the donkey, both of them. Suddnly the people in the street said, what a pity, they have no mercy on the poor donkey, both of them are riding it. Therefore, "Juha" told his son, getting the aproval and happiness of all people is an unreachable goal.

We have some rather similar scriptures ourselves, addressed to those who followed earlier Messengers. Our view of those religions that came before is pretty much the same as yours, other than we've gone another step.

While it's true that it would have been preferable for Jews and Christians to follow Muhammad, who was after all predicted in their texts (at least in the Christian ones), is there anything in Muhammad's treatment of Jews or Christians that would lead us to believe that they were going to rot in gehenna because they would not accept Muhammad (pbuh)?

It wasn't preferable but they must follow prophet Mohammed. Anyway, as you said you believe in jews and christians the same way i do. Therefore, I believe, you have no problem to believe in Torah, Injil and finally, Quran. Also, all my friends in here said that they believe in the Quran as the word of God. Therefore, i gonna show you a chapter in Quran to see your views about it, Popey's as well.

98. The Clear Evidence (Al-Baiyinah)


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

1. Those who disbelieve, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,-

2. Messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:

3. Wherein are books right and straight.

4. Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.

5. And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to give Zakat; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.

6. Those who disbelieve, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
8. Their reward is with Allah. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.

[TashaN]

Continue ...

Qur'an 2:111-112 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Heifer)

And they say: "None shall enter paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Nay whoever submits his whole self to Allah and is a doer of good he will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

And ...

Qur'an 3:199 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)

And there are certainly among the people of the Book those who believe in Allah in the revelation to you and in the revelation to them bowing in humility to Allah: they will not sell the signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord and Allah is swift in account.

Therefore, if they believed in the revelation to their prophet AND the revelation to prophet Mohammed and bow in humility to Allah so their reward with Allah but if they don't believe in prophet Mohammed so they wouldn't considered as muslims and they are considered as unbelievers.

[BruceDLimber]

Truth, you missed the last part of the story, where the father and son together carry the donkey! :-S

Bruce

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Truth, you missed the last part of the story, where the father and son together carry the donkey! :-S

Bruce

That's the way I heard it too, but the very last part of the story is how the donkey kicked while being carried over a bridge and fell into the water and drowned.

Trying to please everyone ends up pleasing no one, including the donkey.

lunamoth

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Therefore, if they believed in the revelation to their prophet AND the revelation to prophet Mohammed and bow in humility to Allah so their reward with Allah but if they don't believe in prophet Mohammed so they wouldn't considered as muslims and they are considered as unbelievers.

A Baha`i is not going to quibble with that. It's true. The only bump comes when we compare interpretations of "The Seal of the Prophets".

How are you, my friend? Everything seems okay here, my wife is feeling somewhat better, though still not well.

Regards,
Scott

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Truth, you missed the last part of the story, where the father and son together carry the donkey! :-S

Bruce

Originally Posted by lunamoth

That's the way I heard it too, but the very last part of the story is how the donkey kicked while being carried over a bridge and fell into the water and drowned.

Trying to please everyone ends up pleasing no one, including the donkey.

lunamoth

Never heard of the other part of the story, this is new to me, thanks anyway to complete the story for me.

Actually, that story was to remind Booko that we can't please everyone as lunamoth said.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

A Baha`i is not going to quibble with that. It's true. The only bump comes when we compare interpretations of "The Seal of the Prophets".

How are you, my friend? Everything seems okay here, my wife is feeling somewhat better, though still not well.

Regards,
Scott

I'm find my friend, what about you?

BTW, my pervious answer wasn't about Baha'i faith but about Jewish and Christians because Booko asked about them. I know that Baha'i faith acknowledge prophet Mohammed.

I'm really sorry about your wife, is she ok now?

I hope that she gonna get better soon.