Question about Bab and Bahaullah (Earth, tradition, virtual, contradiction)

[Judgement Day]

Hi. My apologies if this question has been asked before. Forgive my ignorance.

I am quite sure that the Bahai faith believe in Muhammad and the Quran. In Quran, Muhammad is testified as the last prophet on earth and there wont be any other prophet after him. If the Bahai faith do believe in Muhammad and the Quran, why do you acknowledge the Bab as a prophet and also Bahaullah, who definitely came after Muhammad? Isnt this a violation to the Quran that you believe? THanks in advance.

JD

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Judgement Day

Hi. My apologies if this question has been asked before. Forgive my ignorance.

I am quite sure that the Bahai faith believe in Muhammad and the Quran. In Quran, Muhammad is testified as the last prophet on earth and there wont be any other prophet after him. If the Bahai faith do believe in Muhammad and the Quran, why do you acknowledge the Bab as a prophet and also Bahaullah, who definitely came after Muhammad? Isnt this a violation to the Quran that you believe? THanks in advance.

JD

The way most Islamic believers interpret the verse about the "Seal of the Prophets" is the stumbling block that Islam has created for itself.

If one believes that the Seal of the Prophets means that Muhammad "sealed", "warranted", guaranteed the authenticity of" the Prophets Who came before Him then there is no stumbling block at all.

After Muhammad, within Islam, also one must realize that the authority of the Imams and Caliphs was not that of a "prophet", but still Muhammad promised the Mahdi.

This indicates to me that too much reliance is laid upon the "Seal" as being the end and finish of prophecy. When I look around and view the world today, I know we still need prophecy and instruction from God.

Regards,
Scott

[Judgement Day]

Thank you for the answer, Scott. What about hadiths? Do you approve the hadiths too? There are a lot of hadiths which does not need interpreting telling that Muhammad is the last Prophet.

JD

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Judgement Day

Thank you for the answer, Scott. What about hadiths? Do you approve the hadiths too? There are a lot of hadiths which does not need interpreting telling that Muhammad is the last Prophet.

JD

Well, I give some weight to hadith, but as Muhammad says as the Apostle of God that the BEST hadith is the Qur'an. The hadith on the subject at hand of which I am aware, does not run counter to my interpretation of the Qur'an's statement.

Feel free to ask virtually anything here in this forum, there are several Baha`i's on this forum who will give you answers as good as anything I can say.

To get a better understanding of how Baha`i's see the issue you can check out this paper by a friend of mine (Khazeh Fananapazr) at: http://bahai-library.com/articles/jbs.5-3.fazel.html
"Since there is no question as to the authenticity of the verse Qur'án 33:40, the challenge, therefore, is to reconcile the Bahá'í position of the continuity of divine revelation after Muhammad with the commonly understood meaning of Muhammad as the `Seal of the Prophets'. A starting point, we suggest, is a rational and balanced textual analysis of the Qur'ánic use of the words `Prophets' and `Seal'."
and:
"The Founder of Islam as Khátam

As indicated earlier, many traditions exist which take the phrase khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) to mean "the last prophet." However, the completion of some activity is only one meaning of "seal". The historical use of this word provides other interpretations as follows.

Sealing may also be a guarantee of authenticity, or a device designed to prevent the unauthorised opening of a receptacle without knowledge of the owner. In pre-Muslim Arabia, seals were used in place of a signature, giving validity to a document. They were also utilised as a guarantee that property was kept intact and thus took the place of locks and keys. The possession of another person's seal was evidence that the latter had delegated his authority. Pharaoh, for example, gave Joseph his signet as a sign of authority (Gen 41:42). Jezebel forged a letter in Ahab's name and sealed it with Ahab's seal to give it validity (1 Kings 21:8). Tradition has a certain amount to say about Muhammad's khátam (seal). For instance, Al-Bukhari recounts that the Prophet wished to write to the Byzantines, and was told that it would not be read unless it had a seal on it. He therefore adopted a silver seal with the inscription `Muhammad rasúl Alláh' at the year 7 A.H. (Allan, Khátam 1103).

The expression khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) is found in several places in classical Arabic poetry. A verse in the Díwán of Umayya b. Abí al-Salt speaks of the Prophet as the one "by means of whom God sealed [khatama] the prophets [nabiyyín] before him and after him" (Prophecy 57). This verse implies the appearance of prophets after Muhammad, so that the verb khatama here cannot be understood to mean the termination of something. Friedmann suggests the possibility that it means "he stamped upon them his seal [of approval]" (ibid). This idea that the Prophet came to confirm the former prophets is supported by Qur'án 37:37: "he cometh with truth and confirmeth the Sent Ones [mursalin] of old."[30]

There are other indications that the belief in the finality of Muhammad's prophethood was not generally accepted in the early days of Islam. In a gloss explaining the expression of khayr al-khawátim (the best of the seals) used in the Naqá'id, the commentator Abú `Ubayda who died in 209 A.H. says, "He [the poet] means that the Prophet . . . is the seal of the prophets, which means he is the best of the prophets" (Naqá'id 349). A similar interpretation is given by Abú Riyásh al-Qaysí in his commentary on al-Kumayt's Háshimiyyat. Commentating on a verse in which the prophet is referred to as khátam (or khátim) al-anbiyá', Abú Riyásh says that the meaning of khátim al-anbiyá' is someone who seals the prophets; khátam al-anbiyá', on the other hand, means "beauty of the prophets" or "the best of them" (Friedmann, Prophecy 57). Another explicit tradition that supports this idea is attributed to `Á'isha, who said, "Say [that the Prophet is] the seal of the prophets and do not say that there is no prophet after him" (Al-Suyúti, qtd. in Friedmann, Prophecy 63). The phrase khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) here cannot mean "the last prophet", but is understandable in the sense of the best prophet. Also, the foremost Kúfí grammarian al-Tha'lad held that "al-khátim is the one who sealed the prophets and al-khátam is the best of the prophets in character and physical constitution" (Al-`Ayní, qtd. in Friedmann, Prophecy 58).

These doxological[31] interpretations of seal seem to indicate that even in the third century of Islam, there still existed different interpretations of khátam al-anbiyá' (seal of the prophets). These interpretations also found their way into hadíth literature. For instance, there is a saying of the Imam `Alí that "Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets [khátam al-anbiyá'] and I am the Seal of the Successors [khátam al-wasiyyín]" (Majlisí, Bihár 4-5).[32] If seal solely meant termination, then how can one understand `Alí as sealing the successorship, when there were to be eleven Imams after him according to Shi`i belief and the Caliphate was to continue after him in the history of Sunni Islam? Also, one Bahá'í writer discusses the implications of a hadíth in which the Prophet is reported to have said, "I am the last prophet and the mosque I am constructing is the last mosque." Rawshani argues that if by the term "last mosque" is understood that no other mosque will be built in the dispensation of Islam, then clearly this is an absurd contradiction, unless it was used in a doxological manner. On this ground the term khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) refers to the fact that the Prophet confirmed the prophets before him and thus the peoples of Arabia, who had not accepted the prophethood of the prophets of the past, particularly those of the Abrahamic tradition, were summoned to recognise them (Rawshani, Khátamiyyat 30-31). Moreover, there are variant meanings of seal suggested in the Qur'án; one verse states that on the Day of God a `choice' wine will quench the thirst of the Righteous, "whose seal [khitám] is musk" (83:26).

In summary, there is cogent evidence to suggest that the word khátam (seal) did not mean `the last' in a temporal sense to early Muslims. There are instances in classical Arabic poetry and hadíth literature to suggest that the word khátam (seal) was used to mean `the one who confirmed' (the prophets of the past), and understood in a honorific way as `the best' (of the prophets)."

Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

Baha'is respond that the dispensation of Muhammad sealed the age of prophecy while in the Baha'i Era which began in 1844 or 1260 AH the age of fulfillment began.

Also, the term "khátam al-nabiyyín" (seal of the prophets) in the Qur'an 33:40 refers to "nabiyyin" or inspired prophets and not to "rasuli" or Prophets who bring scriptures and new dispensations.

There was also a Shiah school called the Shaykhi (from Shaykh Ahmad) that anticipated the Return of the Twelfth Imam in the year '60 which many believed to refer to the year 1260 that was fulfilled by the Declaration of the Bab in 1260 AH/1844 AD. The last Imam was believed to have disappeared in the year 260 AH one thousand years prior. So there was a kind of Messianic expectation that fueled the beginnings of the Babi movement which largely became the Baha'i Faith later after 1863.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

Hi Art, how are you doing? Allah-u-abha and Happy Fast (the Baha`i Fast lasts from March 2nd to March 21 each year). I thought I would respond about this while I was by.

Originally Posted by arthra

Baha'is respond that the dispensation of Muhammad sealed the age of prophecy while in the Baha'i Era which began in 1844 or 1260 AH the age of fulfillment began.

Unfortunately, this line of argument usually leads to entrenchment for both sides. The Muslim will happily agree that the cycle ends with Muhammad but will not budge on the issue of whether or not another cycle is allowed to begin. The Baha`i knows that this is the will of God, and both sides retire behind their fortress walls and refuse to engage further. Dialogue stops.

Originally Posted by arthra

Also, the term "khátam al-nabiyyín" (seal of the prophets) in the Qur'an 33:40 refers to "nabiyyin" or inspired prophets and not to "rasuli" or Prophets who bring scriptures and new dispensations.

This usually leads to the same conclusion as the first argument since most Muslims and all of the clerics will argue that to BE "rasul" or the bearer of a new revelation the "rasul" must have been a prophet (nabi). So if there can be no more nabbiyin, there can also be no more rasuli either.

Originally Posted by arthra

There was also a Shiah school called the Shaykhi (from Shaykh Ahmad) that anticipated the Return of the Twelfth Imam in the year '60 which many believed to refer to the year 1260 that was fulfilled by the Declaration of the Bab in 1260 AH/1844 AD. The last Imam was believed to have disappeared in the year 260 AH one thousand years prior. So there was a kind of Messianic expectation that fueled the beginnings of the Babi movement which largely became the Baha'i Faith later after 1863.

- Art

Quite right, though this argument usually breaks along Sunni and Shi'ih lines. Amongst SHi'ih there are also those who do not accept the concept of 12 imams, but believer there were only 7, or even just five. So, Shi'ih break into the largest group "twelvers", and the smaller fringes of "Seveners" and "Fivers". The Sunni will refuse to play the game at all. Then there is the fact that the Shaykhi School itself divorced itself from the Bab and His claims, actually becoming very traditionalist Twelver Islam. Not everyone of the Shaykhi scholars accepted any authority transfer to Mulla Husayn after the death of Siyyid Khazim al Rashti. In Shi'ih Islam the issue of who was the Bab and who was Siyyid Khazim al Rashti that a fine ink drawing of Siyyid Khazim was thought to be a drawing of the Bab for many years. Some of the Shi'ih who particularly rant against the Bab and Baha`u'llah STILL maintain it to be a picture of the Bab for some strange propagandistic reason which is way beyond my understanding.

Regards,
Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

In fact, the Qur'an pronounces Muhammad the Seal of the minor prophets ("nabi"), not of the major Divine Messengers ("Ras'ul")!

(And the word often translated as "seal" also has the meaning "ornament," so for Baha'is this is not a problem.)

Also, the Baha'i scriptures state explicitly that there is a sense in which every Divine Messenger is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, and the seal!

As to hadith, Baha'is generally accept only those which were specifically quoted in our scriptures and discount the rest. Indeed, the Muslims themselves can't agree on which ones are and aren't legitimate, so that different Muslim groups believe different subsets of hadith.

Finally, the Baha'i scriptures state that "Judgement Day" refers to the time when a new Divine Messenger is on earth, and everyone is tested as to whether or not he or she accepts Him.

Best regards, :-)

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

"In fact, the Qur'an pronounces Muhammad the Seal of the minor prophets ("nabi"), not of the major Divine Messengers ("Ras'ul")!"

Actually what they say is that NO Rasul can exist if He was not also a "nabi". Thus there can be no more "rasul" because He cannot also be Nabi. Its a pointless argument to pursue with Muslims because it quickly reaches this "entrenchment" point and no dialogue can continue. Its a waste of time for all involved.

Regards,
Scott