Atheists Only: Would this be proof? (agnostic, pray, Abraham, God)

[Katzpur]

Calling all atheists! Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

[UnTheist]

There have been some studies regarding this issue, such as this one:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071401695.html

The results were that Christians prayer had little effect on health, but it says religious people may have a slight less suffering of their illness, yet mostly due to a positive and hopeful attitude, which can help the body work better.


If it did happen, and there was significant evidence showing it, I would definitely consider it

[Katzpur]

Thanks for your input. That's just what I was looking for. I hope to see a lot of responses because it would really be interesting to me.

[standing_alone]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves.

Awww, man. I'm always looking for a good fight.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Well, come on, guys! What you got against the second group?

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Would such results make me believe in God? No. Would they make me think? Quite possibly. The thing is, such results where all the members of one group miraculously healed and all the members of another group died would make me very suspicious about the results, as I'd expect there to be some who died and some who lived in each group, taking into account the variable nature of illnesses and that prayer doesn't always seem to work in keeping people alive, etc. I would ultimately conclude bias.

Regardless, I already have heard of studies that show that prayer has little or no effect on recovery of patients.

EDIT: Ah, I see the person who posted before me with the funky name posted a link. Cool.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by standing_alone

Awww, man. I'm always looking for a good fight.

You don't want to fight with me. I fight dirty.

Would such results make me believe in God? No. Would they make me think? Quite possibly. The thing is, such results where all the members of one group miraculously healed and all the members of another group died would make me very suspicious about the results, as I'd expect there to be some who died and some who lived in each group, taking into account the variable nature of illnesses and that prayer doesn't always seem to work in keeping people alive, etc. I would ultimately conclude bias.

I see. Well your answer doesn't exactly take into account that all 250,000 of the one group lived and got well; all 250,000 of the other group died as expected. I'm talking about results that were clearly delineated along the lines I described. There weren't a handful of exceptions.

Regardless, I already have heard of studies that show that prayer has little or no effect on recovery of patients.

Yeah, I've heard those, too, but I've also heard the opposite results. But, that's all beside the point as I've tried to state it.

[standing_alone]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well your answer doesn't exactly take into account that all 250,000 of the one group lived and got well; all 250,000 of the other group died as expected.

Yeah, I did. And that's what would make me, personally, suspicious. I could see there being a significant difference between both groups, like most of the unprayed for dying, but not all, but when it's 100% survival for the prayed for and 100% death for the unprayed for, I'm going to be suspicious. I'd expect there to be some deaths and some living in both groups. Not a 100% success/failure rate like that. That just draws my suspicion.

[GeneCosta]

I would first want extensive research done by trustworthy organizations and doctors to prove there was no funny business going on. If the general consesus is approval, I would further investigate the subject to ensure I hadn't misread any information. Then upon finding no other theory of reasonable merit I would finally consider God to be a very real possibility.

[eudaimonia]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment?

No, this wouldn't be sufficient, since it could be evidence of the existence of psychic healing powers that are fully owned by human beings in a godless universe. I'm afraid it would be a far cry away from establishing the existence of a universe-creating superbeing, but it would certainly shake up my worldview, though like the others I would be suspicious of fraud.


eudaimonia,

Mark