Atheists Only: Would this be proof? (Jesus, moral, Earth, creation)

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Calling all atheists! Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

I thought I answered this already but cannot find my response, so please excuse if I'm repeating myself. Yes, I would find this very intriguing evidence. It would not be enough alone to persuade me, but I would find it powerful evidence in favor of such a God, that would require me to rethink and review other evidence.

In fact, some research has been done in this area, and it has found the opposite. Intercessory prayer has shown to be ineffective. Does this cause you to rethink your belief in God?

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God?

While that wouldn't really be proof, it would be close enough for me.

[TurkeyOnRye]

Originally Posted by rojse

Well, the example Katzpur gave is good enough for me as a demonstration. What were you considering?

As for showing himself, that is extremely debatable. People see faces of religious figures in their food. Is that a good enough showing?

No. Not even close. Humans' minds' are designed to see figures and patterns. That's how we recognize each other.

I'm thinking of shaking the world with his triumphant voice and moving mountains as a sign of his godly power. Maybe even make the earth rotate in a different direction. If god wants his presence to be known, he needs to get off his butt and start making magic happen.

[rojse]

Originally Posted by TurkeyOnRye

No. Not even close. Humans' minds' are designed to see figures and patterns. That's how we recognize each other.

I'm thinking of shaking the world with his triumphant voice and moving mountains as a sign of his godly power. Maybe even make the earth rotate in a different direction. If god wants his presence to be known, he needs to get off his butt and start making magic happen.

Two hundred and fifty thousand people recovering from a terminal illness is not making magic happen?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by rojse

Two hundred and fifty thousand people recovering from a terminal illness is not making magic happen?

An omnipotent, omniscient God would know exactly what is required to convince each of us of His own existence and would be completely able to make it happen.

The fact that this has definitely not occurred for the vast majority of people indicates to me one of a few possibilities:

- God exists, but does not want to be universally known
- God does not exist
- God is either not omnipotent or not omniscient (or both)

Some religions can cope with some combinations of these possibilities; the mainstream versions of the Abrahamic religions cannot, IMO.

[BucephalusBB]

250000 people death? Give it some extra tests and I am in. I would probably start believing in some godlike creature, but definatelly still not follow a religion.

Also, I would be very dissappointed, not because I would not be right, but it would probably destroy my view of a perfect world..

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can't help thinking that even this scenario could be faked: all you need is a few thousand morally-deficient doctors (or morally-deficient people who can masquerade as doctors), 500,000 healthy people and some supplies.

"Diagnosing" 500,000 people with cancer would be straightforward enough: if it has no outward sign, then all that's needed is the say-so of a doctor. "Curing" 250,000 people is easy as well, especially if they're not actually sick.

Arranging for 250,000 people to die would be more difficult, but certainly doable, especially if you're injecting them with "chemotherapy" anyhow.

So... even this foolproof scenario could be faked by people with enough determination and resources.

[rojse]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

I can't help thinking that even this scenario could be faked: all you need is a few thousand morally-deficient doctors (or morally-deficient people who can masquerade as doctors), 500,000 healthy people and some supplies.

"Diagnosing" 500,000 people with cancer would be straightforward enough: if it has no outward sign, then all that's needed is the say-so of a doctor. "Curing" 250,000 people is easy as well, especially if they're not actually sick.

Arranging for 250,000 people to die would be more difficult, but certainly doable, especially if you're injecting them with "chemotherapy" anyhow.

So... even this foolproof scenario could be faked by people with enough determination and resources.

But such a conspiracy fails to take into account that there may be one doctor who has moral qualms with this, one nurse who has objections, and tries to alert everyone to this. Most conspiracies neglect to cover this vitally important fact about human psychology.

And how would you find so many doctors, all of which would need impecible credentials so that the final results would not be contested, that would be able to do such a thing? They need to be actual doctors, because there certainly would be people independent of the original process that would be monitoring the entire process, to make sure that there is no trickery or fakery. This monitoring is a good thing, because it gives accountability to the entire process.

Add to that, the doctors would need to support the idea of Christianity enough to volunteer for such a process, but be willing to break quite a few commandments, particularly about lying and murdering people.

Certainly, I do agree with you that it is possible, but then, it is possible for me to get struck by a meteorite. Twice. When I am exploring an underground cavern.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by rojse

But such a conspiracy fails to take into account that there may be one doctor who has moral qualms with this, one nurse who has objections, and tries to alert everyone to this. Most conspiracies neglect to cover this vitally important fact about human psychology.

There have been plenty of secrets and conspiracies like this that have gone untold. Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people knew about the D-Day landing in advance, for example, and the Germans still thought the invasion was a diversion even after it was fully underway.

I'm certain that some of the Manhattan Project scientists had moral misgivings about their creation being used in war (actually, a number of them signed a statement to this effect after the war), but Japan never heard that the bomb was coming.

Anyhow, one person or even a few people speaking out doesn't necessarily end the conspiracy. Roswell is the perhaps overused example: did the world suddenly believe that an alien craft crash-landed there just because a number of people said so? How many "witnesses" did that have?

Originally Posted by rojse

And how would you find so many doctors, all of which would need impecible credentials so that the final results would not be contested, that would be able to do such a thing? They need to be actual doctors, because there certainly would be people independent of the original process that would be monitoring the entire process, to make sure that there is no trickery or fakery. This monitoring is a good thing, because it gives accountability to the entire process.

I agree that accountability is a good thing, but there was nothing about that or independent monitoring in the OP.

Originally Posted by rojse

Add to that, the doctors would need to support the idea of Christianity enough to volunteer for such a process, but be willing to break quite a few commandments, particularly about lying and murdering people.

I don't think there's a worldwide shortage of people who purport to be Christians (or to be of any particular religious stripe - this scenario was set up to be non-denominational) who are willing to break a few commandments if it suits their purposes.

Originally Posted by rojse

Certainly, I do agree with you that it is possible, but then, it is possible for me to get struck by a meteorite. Twice. When I am exploring an underground cavern.

I think you underestimate humanity's potential for awful deeds, but still, when the "meteor" is steered by a pilot who is intent on doing you harm, your odds of being hit go up dramatically.

[rojse]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

There have been plenty of secrets and conspiracies like this that have gone untold. Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people knew about the D-Day landing in advance, for example, and the Germans still thought the invasion was a diversion even after it was fully underway.

I'm certain that some of the Manhattan Project scientists had moral misgivings about their creation being used in war (actually, a number of them signed a statement to this effect after the war), but Japan never heard that the bomb was coming.

Firstly, the soldiers and generals that knew the day and site of the D-Day landing were kept in isolation, away from the general public. Same for those working on the Manhattan Project. Certainly, the doctors and nurses and such could be kept in isolation in this experiment, but that would just support any conspiracy theory that would arise, and I have little doubt that they would, unless the process is kept open, transparent and monitored.

A faulty experiment, or one with even a hint of conspiracy behind it, would result in many people disregarding the results of the experiment, and disregarding the faith that was assisting the experiment. In fact, tampering with the experiment would be good proof that God did not actually exist, because the miracle had to be manufactured.

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Anyhow, one person or even a few people speaking out doesn't necessarily end the conspiracy. Roswell is the perhaps overused example: did the world suddenly believe that an alien craft crash-landed there just because a number of people said so? How many "witnesses" did that have?

Firstly, we don't know even if the Roswell incident is true or not.

People speaking out does end the conspiracy. Think of Watergate, or the Contra affair (not too familiar with American politics, looks like you can make out what the conspiracies actually are). People speaking out does stop a conspiracy, as long as you have evidence to support your claim.

[quote=9-10ths_Penguin;972903]I agree that accountability is a good thing, but there was nothing about that or independent monitoring in the OP.

The fact that there would be monitoring of this seems self-evident to me. It seemed to me to be so obvious that it barely warranted a mention, like saying scuba divers need oxygen tanks.

Firstly, there are plenty of skeptics that would want to ensure that the event would not be faked. The groups running the project cannot just say: "Go away. We don't want you checking up on our results." Everyone would disregard the experiments, then.

Secondly, there would be religious people that would want to ensure that the miracle actually occured.

You cannot just say that someone is dying. You would need medical evidence, such as scans, and so forth. They might fool laymen like you or I, but no doubt there would be trained doctors overseeing the results. I trust their judgement, even if you do not want me to trust any doctor in the experiment.

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

I don't think there's a worldwide shortage of people who purport to be Christians (or to be of any particular religious stripe - this scenario was set up to be non-denominational) who are willing to break a few commandments if it suits their purposes.

I think you underestimate humanity's potential for awful deeds, but still, when the "meteor" is steered by a pilot who is intent on doing you harm, your odds of being hit go up dramatically.

The amount of doctors required to monitor patients would be huge. How many patients do you want for each doctor? Ten? (fifty thousand doctors) Twenty? (twenty-five thousand)? Twenty-five? (twenty thousand doctors). That's a huge amount of doctors, and to get that many, screen them so that they would support Christianity to such an extent, yet not have the moral qualms that come from directly disobeying the Biblical commandments, seems like a near-impossible ask to me. You would need a lot of nurses, too, to oversee patient care, so at least double the amount of doctors to get your total. And you want to claim that not one of them would speak out about the affair.

I agree, that the occurence of a conspiracy to such a scale is probable, but only by a miniscule amount.