Atheists Only: Would this be proof?

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by waitasec

sure i would believe it if that happened, who wouldn't?

Noaidi wouldn't:

Originally Posted by Noaidi

The above sums up my thinking on this.

It doesn't rule out the possible existence of a god, but it doesn't confirm it either.

[waitasec]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

Noaidi wouldn't:

gotcha...some people are more sensible than i...

[Noaidi]

Originally Posted by waitasec

gotcha...some people are more sensible than i...

Not all of us, though!

[cablescavenger]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Calling all atheists! Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

You do not have to prove God. You have faith. God exists in your mind.

Atheists do not have to prove God, they have no faith. God does not exist in the mind of the atheist.

If God exists then God can prove it, and until that happens God will only ever exist in the minds of the religious.

[cottage]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Calling all atheists! Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

Okay it has actually happened - exactly as you said! Two hundred and fifty thousand souls in the first group have been healed, and the fact of the matter has been soundly corroborated. No one can deny that a miracle or a very, very unique event has occurred. As a sceptic I've never been able to deny that a causal power is logically possible, even though I've thought it highly improbable, but as a result of this I must definitely consider the likelihood of some form of supernatural agency at work. But I'm not going to prostrate myself, as a grateful and unworthy supplicant, before this supernatural cause. As other contributors have already pointed out, the conditions under which this Being has intervened/not intervened in the material world, both historically and in this particular instance, do not inspire one to award the term worshipful.

But to slightly wander away from Katzpur's hypothesis, it must surely be the case that God, if he chooses, can make me believe in him. It is not necessary for there to be miraculous events that contradict the uniformity of nature; nor is required of me to describe how God might provide such evidence, since where we have proof of p it follows that we have evidence of p. But that statement must be qualified, for even if the proof is entirely sufficient for me to belief in God, it doesn’t follow from my belief that ‘God exists’ is true, because 'True for me' is only a value relativism and not a genuine concept of truth.

[Idoleject]

"... {X}exists’ is true, because 'True for me' is only a value relativism and not a genuine concept of truth."

Rather like vivid hallucinations and otherwise irrational thoughts caused by tumors and chemical imbalance in the brain are perceived as "true" relative to the individual in whom the anomaly occurs but should not be universally accepted as a general concept of truth.

I could not agree more!

[Iti oj]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Calling all atheists! Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

if everything was legit i suppose sooo yeah. but then again is it anything more then proof of the power of intention/attention? I would definitely have to reevaluate everything i know....ohhh and the test would have to be replicable..

[Commoner]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

Well, this would certainly be a strong case for the effectiveness of prayer. But, no matter how impressive 250.000 people being cured is, 250.000 separate instances would be the real "proof", repeatable experiments, controlled conditions. But yeah - your example would certainly make me re-examine my position.

However, prayer being effective doesn't necessary have to do with the existence of a god. And it's even more confusing when it comes to which god exactly this could be attributed to. Furthermore, this would seem to be a god I would not want to be affiliated with, and certainly not a god I would want to worship. I don't take kindly to people who are so easily bribed and who can be so callous and indifferent towards my fellow human beings. More the devil than a god, it would seem to me.

[Thomas Van Gogh]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God."

First, to answer your question of would I believe in a (abrahamic) god if such a "miracle" were to occur.

If such a miracle was to occur, I would acknowledge the existence of a higher being. But let me be clear that this does not mean that I would FOLLOW him!

My personal atheism has always been built on the foundation that if someone finally proved the existence of God and it was irrefutable, I would acknowledge that but never would I follow such a god that allows evil to exist. In fact, I would rebel against such a master.

Too bad this is all hypothetical~

[Katzpur]

I love this thread! I can't believe I actually started a thread that has over 12,000 views. Most of my threads die on the vine right away.