Atheists Only: Would this be proof? (contradiction, beliefs, experience, pray)

[Autodidact]

What I find to be a remarkable coincidence is the way that God answers prayers at the exact same rate as if he didn't exist.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Jay

It seems odd to have a 'personal hunch' concerning the personaliity of the supernatural.

Yeah.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

What I find to be a remarkable coincidence is the way that God answers prayers at the exact same rate as if he didn't exist.

Really. Well, my experience is entirely different from yours, but as I said before, faith precedes the miracle, not the other way around.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

I'm not aware of any evidence that the ancient Israelites enjoyed unusually good health and longevity, or that such health and longevity as they did enjoy was due to kashruth. However, if that were true, it would have been a good idea to keep kosher even if one didn't understand why.

Looking at correlation without an understanding of causation, it would have been a good idea to adhere to every Jewish practice, not just keeping kosher: assuming that they were healthier (which I admit is just a presumption), the correlation would be just as strong between health and circumcision, or health and celebrating Jewish holidays, as it would be between health and dietary customs.

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

The scenario Kat proposes is considerably more remarkable. Given a choice between believing that there is a God of some sort and believing that theists are able to achieve a 100% success rate at healing cancer in others through some natural process involving positive thinking and spoken words, the proposition that there is a god of some sort seems more likely to me. That doesn't mean that even under those circumstances you should look for me in the choir.

Still, assuming that God healed them is the alternative that has the most new assumptions built into it. If we consider some sort of psychic ability like I mentioned, we need to assume an unknown mechanism by which the healing could happen, but the originators of that healing, i.e. the people themselves, obviously exist. If we consider that a God healed the people, not only do we have to assume an unknown mechanism like we would for pyschic abilities, but we also have to assume the existence of God as well. I know that Occam's Razor isn't a guarantee of correctness, but we have to look at the situation objectively: one alternative requires a 5-gallon bucketfull of baseless assumptions; the other requires a god-plus-5-gallons-sized bucket.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Looking at correlation without an understanding of causation, it would have been a good idea to adhere to every Jewish practice, not just keeping kosher: assuming that they were healthier (which I admit is just a presumption), the correlation would be just as strong between health and circumcision, or health and celebrating Jewish holidays, as it would be between health and dietary customs.

Good point. If you didn't understand the process, it would be impossible to know which of the behaviors were beneficial.

However, I still want to stress my objection to the notion that keeping kosher enabled the ancient Israelites to enjoy greater health or longevity than their neighbors. We're always being told that, but there never seems to be any evidence to back it up.

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Still, assuming that God healed them is the alternative that has the most new assumptions built into it. If we consider some sort of psychic ability like I mentioned, we need to assume an unknown mechanism by which the healing could happen, but the originators of that healing, i.e. the people themselves, obviously exist. If we consider that a God healed the people, not only do we have to assume an unknown mechanism like we would for pyschic abilities, but we also have to assume the existence of God as well. I know that Occam's Razor isn't a guarantee of correctness, but we have to look at the situation objectively: one alternative requires a 5-gallon bucketfull of baseless assumptions; the other requires a god-plus-5-gallons-sized bucket.

You're right, and I concede the point. I guess that having been a theist for so long, I haven't yet completely overcome a mental bias in favor of theism. That's a good thing to be aware of.

So I'd like to change my answer.

In the event of a remarkable scenario like the one Kat lays out in the OP, I'd be very interested in learning what processes led to the outcome described. On re-reading the OP, I also find it interesting that even a believer describes this scenario as impossible.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

What I find to be a remarkable coincidence is the way that God answers prayers at the exact same rate as if he didn't exist.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Really. Well, my experience is entirely different from yours, but as I said before, faith precedes the miracle, not the other way around.

I used to have faith; I had faith for quite a long time. But I still don't have any remarkable tales of miracles to tell. It's true that I could always find my keys if I asked St. Phanourios to help me find them, but that's the sort of miracle that not only doesn't impress atheists, it doesn't even impress believers who aren't disposed to believe in praying to saints.

What it seems to come down to is that as far as we know, miracles don't have any objective existence at all, and believing in miracles is really just a particular way of looking at the world, and an unwarranted and fanciful way at that.

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Really. Well, my experience is entirely different from yours, but as I said before, faith precedes the miracle, not the other way around.

But actual controlled studies indicate that I'm right. Here's an example: Don't you think thousands of committed, faithful Christians prayed for Hurricane Katrina to turn away from New Orleans? Did it do any good? Did it have any effect? Try this: For the next week, pray for warm, dry weather. Then compare it to the weather for the last ten years during the same period. Do Christians win the lottery at a higher rate than atheists? Don't you think they pray to do so? It doesn't matter what order you do them in; prayer has no measurable effect, except on the person praying.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

But actual controlled studies indicate that I'm right. Here's an example: Don't you think thousands of committed, faithful Christians prayed for Hurricane Katrina to turn away from New Orleans? Did it do any good? Did it have any effect? Try this: For the next week, pray for warm, dry weather. Then compare it to the weather for the last ten years during the same period. Do Christians win the lottery at a higher rate than atheists? Don't you think they pray to do so? It doesn't matter what order you do them in; prayer has no measurable effect, except on the person praying.

Thanks for your input, autodidact. I disagree, but that should come as no great surprise.

[Ceridwen018]

Katzpur,

To answer your initial post;

If the experiment with the sick patients ended up as you said, I would definately be intrigued. I wouldn't drop everything and believe in god on the spot, but I would certainly want to pursue further testing.

I wonder...if god was real and sick people die without prayers...could religious people be prosecuted for the deaths of cancer patients because they didn't pray for them?!

[Mr Spinkles]

Hi Ceridwen.....nice post.

Originally Posted by Ceridwen018

Katzpur,

To answer your initial post;

If the experiment with the sick patients ended up as you said, I would definately be intrigued. I wouldn't drop everything and believe in god on the spot, but I would certainly want to pursue further testing.

But if further testing showed, absolutely, positively, that prayer worked....then you would have to reconsider the possibility of god, no?

Hey Katzpur,

Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, but.....

Obviously, the issue of the efficacy of intercessory prayer cannot be resolved by the experiences of a single individual. The only compelling way to demonstrate an effect is through controlled study. Many such studies have, in fact, been performed.

A friend of mine, who posts on this forum by the name of Zeno, has reviewed the medical literature pretty thoroughly on the subject of the efficacy of intercessory prayer. While there is controversy over the issue within the literature, a close examination reveals that the body of methodologically sound studies show that prayer in and of itself has no statistically significant effect. (Of course, there can be psychological effects on patients if they know they are being prayed for--harmful effects, in some cases.) I can ask Zeno to cite the relevant studies (including the ones which claim to measure a positive effect) if you like.