Spiritual Combat (Jesus, Earth, followers, Jehovah, choice)

[Yes Man]

How did the angels battle each other during the War in Heaven? If the angels are supposedly immortal, then how does a battle between angel and angel work?

[Sola'lor]

Ok, I'll take a shot at this one. The War in Heaven was not fought using weapons in an attempt to kill people. The spirits who fought in the ware in heaven as you said are immortal so weapons that kill people are useless and irrelevant. The war in Heaven started when God presented his plan so that all of his spirit children(us, meaning every human being) could precede to our next level of progression.

Slight Digression: Many people wonder why we would choose to leave God's presence and come here to Earth if life was perfect there. The answer is that we had been living there for an eternity we had learned all that we possibly could with the knowledge available to us. We wanted more. So God presented a plan that would allow us to progess beyond the Spirit state. So of course we wanted to leave because we wanted to progress.

Back on Topic: God knew that mankind would fall to a lower(fallen) state because he knew that Adam would sin. So for God's plan to be carried out we needed a saviour to allow us to recover from the fallen state. And the imortant part is that we would be allowed to choose to what degree we wanted to progress upon reaching this world. God also knew that not all of his children would be up to the test. But because He is a loving God, He knew that we all deserved a chance. God's first-born Spirit child Jehovah(aka Jesus Chirst although he did not yet have a physical body because we was not yet born on Earth) volunteered to be the Saviour of all humankind. He knowingly offered himself to be the one to take unpon himself the sins of the world.

Another one of God's spirit children known as Lucifer(Personal Speculation Not Docrtine: Although he was not evil in this state he just held slightly different views as to how the plan should be.) Because of his pride an arogance Lucifer presented his own plan. He said that if his plan was chosen he would make sure that all of God's children would return because they would not be allowed to choose between good and evil they would only be allowed to choose good. He also demanded that as a reward for ensuring that all of God's children returned he wanted all of God's power and glory for himself. It was because of this the War in Heaven started.

Main Bit:
And as I stated earlier the war wasn't fought with guns, missle, grenades, land mines, laser beams or what have you. It was fought with words. It was like a debate. Since all of us are individuals we all had different ideas on the subject back then. We were debating over who we wanted to follow, God and Jehovah, or Lucifer. Seems a pretty clear cut choice for most people. However, think if there was someone who wasn't sure we would be able to pass the mortality test. Satans plan would be tempting(pardon the pun) because they woul be SURE to return. Lucifer guaranteed it that they would make it back.

So everybody eventually decided which side they were on and the "line was drawn." However God had a little trick up his sleeve. the trick was the fact the he is God. God is the one who ultiumatly decide what would happen and ofcourse God chose to stick with hid PERFECT plan and have Jahovah be our Saviour. He cast Lucifer and his followers out because they has turned away from God and had chosen a different plan. This made them evil because the had chosen differently than to choose the PERFECT plan of a PERFECT God. Not that they were required to but in chosing differently the rebelled against God.

So Lucifer now known as Satan was cast out and him and his followers were denied the privilage of gaining a physical body. They are to remain spirits forwever. Only those who chose God's plan were allowed to come to Earth and gain a physical body. And here we are today everyone who has been, is now, and ever will be alive on this Earth for no matter how long or brief a time, chose to follow God's plan.

that is what I believe and I hope you can get some answers out of there.

[Guitar's Cry]

When we kill each other, our material doesn't disappear, it just changes form. Some myths claim the angels changed form as well--into demons.

[RanMan]

Sola'lor, that was a good post. If I might add something to it. Calling it a war is appropriate even though there were no weapons of mass destruction employed because there were, and are, still casualties. Not in the sense that a being ceases to exist, but in that they are forever lost. I am sure there were tactics and strategies and battles all with the intent of swaying the host there to one side or another. And from what I understand, this was no short war. I suspect that it raged for a very long time.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Yes Man

How did the angels battle each other during the War in Heaven? If the angels are supposedly immortal, then how does a battle between angel and angel work?

Hand-to-hand, no weapons other than the immortal bodies. Occasionally, swords...

[Phasmid]

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

Ok, I'll take a shot at this one. The War in Heaven was not fought using weapons in an attempt to kill people. The spirits who fought in the ware in heaven as you said are immortal so weapons that kill people are useless and irrelevant. The war in Heaven started when God presented his plan so that all of his spirit children(us, meaning every human being) could precede to our next level of progression.

Slight Digression: Many people wonder why we would choose to leave God's presence and come here to Earth if life was perfect there. The answer is that we had been living there for an eternity we had learned all that we possibly could with the knowledge available to us. We wanted more. So God presented a plan that would allow us to progess beyond the Spirit state. So of course we wanted to leave because we wanted to progress.

Back on Topic: God knew that mankind would fall to a lower(fallen) state because he knew that Adam would sin. So for God's plan to be carried out we needed a saviour to allow us to recover from the fallen state. And the imortant part is that we would be allowed to choose to what degree we wanted to progress upon reaching this world. God also knew that not all of his children would be up to the test. But because He is a loving God, He knew that we all deserved a chance. God's first-born Spirit child Jehovah(aka Jesus Chirst although he did not yet have a physical body because we was not yet born on Earth) volunteered to be the Saviour of all humankind. He knowingly offered himself to be the one to take unpon himself the sins of the world.

Another one of God's spirit children known as Lucifer(Personal Speculation Not Docrtine: Although he was not evil in this state he just held slightly different views as to how the plan should be.) Because of his pride an arogance Lucifer presented his own plan. He said that if his plan was chosen he would make sure that all of God's children would return because they would not be allowed to choose between good and evil they would only be allowed to choose good. He also demanded that as a reward for ensuring that all of God's children returned he wanted all of God's power and glory for himself. It was because of this the War in Heaven started.

Main Bit:
And as I stated earlier the war wasn't fought with guns, missle, grenades, land mines, laser beams or what have you. It was fought with words. It was like a debate. Since all of us are individuals we all had different ideas on the subject back then. We were debating over who we wanted to follow, God and Jehovah, or Lucifer. Seems a pretty clear cut choice for most people. However, think if there was someone who wasn't sure we would be able to pass the mortality test. Satans plan would be tempting(pardon the pun) because they woul be SURE to return. Lucifer guaranteed it that they would make it back.

So everybody eventually decided which side they were on and the "line was drawn." However God had a little trick up his sleeve. the trick was the fact the he is God. God is the one who ultiumatly decide what would happen and ofcourse God chose to stick with hid PERFECT plan and have Jahovah be our Saviour. He cast Lucifer and his followers out because they has turned away from God and had chosen a different plan. This made them evil because the had chosen differently than to choose the PERFECT plan of a PERFECT God. Not that they were required to but in chosing differently the rebelled against God.

So Lucifer now known as Satan was cast out and him and his followers were denied the privilage of gaining a physical body. They are to remain spirits forwever. Only those who chose God's plan were allowed to come to Earth and gain a physical body. And here we are today everyone who has been, is now, and ever will be alive on this Earth for no matter how long or brief a time, chose to follow God's plan.

that is what I believe and I hope you can get some answers out of there.

An interesting post. A few questions though. From what you stated, it sounds like humans were around at the same time as this war was going on and that we ARE the angels who chose God's plan and recieved physical bodies, while the angels that defied God remain in spiritual bodies and try to hinder our progression to, "the next level". Is that right, or have I missed the plot?

[Sola'lor]

Originally Posted by Phasmid

An interesting post. A few questions though. From what you stated, it sounds like humans were around at the same time as this war was going on and that we ARE the angels who chose God's plan and recieved physical bodies, while the angels that defied God remain in spiritual bodies and try to hinder our progression to, "the next level". Is that right, or have I missed the plot?

Well we were all around but we were spirits. We didn't have physical bodies. We were all involved. Christ was going to be the Saviour but Lucifer offered to be the Saviour with a plan that opposed God's Plan. those Spirits who followed Satan were cast out along with him. Those who chose to followed the Christ are those who are born on the Earth and gain physical bodies. Those who followed Lucifer(Satan) and were cast out will never have physical bodies. They try to tempt those of us on Earth to follow Satan and do evil rather than do good.

[MarcHendo]

um not to be too critical but how do you actually know that we were spirits before we were born. Satan more or less wanted be god and wanted to be in control, not just the savior, also i think he really hates us and even though he knows he is doomed he wants to take as many people as he can with him. I think this was the case with the war in heaven, there were 2 sides one side been on gods and one side wanting to over throw god. I think it was fought with swords or maybe even holy powers

[oldcajun]

Originally Posted by Yes Man

How did the angels battle each other during the War in Heaven? If the angels are supposedly immortal, then how does a battle between angel and angel work?

I have no idea, the Bible doesn't go into details on a lot of things.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

Main Bit:
And as I stated earlier the war wasn't fought with guns, missle, grenades, land mines, laser beams or what have you. It was fought with words. It was like a debate. Since all of us are individuals we all had different ideas on the subject back then. We were debating over who we wanted to follow, God and Jehovah, or Lucifer. Seems a pretty clear cut choice for most people. However, think if there was someone who wasn't sure we would be able to pass the mortality test. Satans plan would be tempting(pardon the pun) because they woul be SURE to return. Lucifer guaranteed it that they would make it back.

So everybody eventually decided which side they were on and the "line was drawn." However God had a little trick up his sleeve. the trick was the fact the he is God. God is the one who ultiumatly decide what would happen and ofcourse God chose to stick with hid PERFECT plan and have Jahovah be our Saviour. He cast Lucifer and his followers out because they has turned away from God and had chosen a different plan. This made them evil because the had chosen differently than to choose the PERFECT plan of a PERFECT God. Not that they were required to but in chosing differently the rebelled against God.

Aren't angels voices supposed to be a heavenly choir? Does that mean the grand "debate in Heaven" was something like American Idol?

Sounds like the finals were fixed by the judge.