Phoenicians and Flying Ships (ritual, beliefs, soul, grace, hell)

[yuvgotmel]

These excerpts from "The Odyssey" by Homer are very intriguing. If taken literally, these texts imply that the Phoenicians, who are often associated with Atlantis, had "ships" which could fly through the air and were steered by thought (desire) of the oarsmen. However, if these texts are not to be taken literally, then the entire book "The Odyssey," (not to be demoted as purely a work of fiction), could perhaps be a description of soul transformation with a glimpse into Hellenistic perspectives concerning life, death and cosmic awareness.

Many researchers have found parts of "The Odyssey" to be historically accurate, which begs the question if there were actual flying ships. Even if Homer was not writing about physical flying ships, he may, however, been describing astral travel among spiritually developed peoples.

"Then Minerva said, "Yes, father stranger, I will show you the house you want, for Alcinous lives quite close to my own father. I will go before you and show the way, but say not a word as you go, and do not look at any man, nor ask him questions; for the people here cannot abide strangers, and do not like men who come from some other place. They are a sea-faring folk, and sail the seas by the grace of Neptune in ships that glide along like thought, or as a bird in the air."
~~ “The Odyssey” (Book VII)

"...You can sleep during the whole voyage if you like, and the men shall sail you over smooth waters either to your own home, or wherever you please, even though it be a long way further off than Euboea, which those of my people who saw it when they took yellow-haired Rhadamanthus to see Tityus the son of Gaia, tell me is the furthest of any place- and yet they did the whole voyage in a single day without distressing themselves, and came back again afterwards. You will thus see how much my ships excel all others, and what magnificent oarsmen my sailors are."
~~ “The Odyssey” (Book VII)

"...For the Phaeacians have no pilots; their vessels have no rudders as those of other nations have, but the ships themselves understand what it is that we are thinking about and want; they know all the cities and countries in the whole world, and can traverse the sea just as well even when it is covered with mist and cloud, so that there is no danger of being wrecked or coming to any harm. ..."
~~ “The Odyssey” (Book VIII)

The ghost of Theban Teiresias spoke to Ulysses:
"...you must take a well-made oar and carry it on and on, till you come to a country where the people have never heard of the sea and do not even mix salt with their food, nor do they know anything about ships, and oars that are as the wings of a ship. ..."
~~ “The Odyssey” (Book XI)

"...But it would take me all night if I were to name every single one of the wives and daughters of heroes whom I saw, and it is time for me to go to bed, either on board ship with my crew, or here. As for my escort, heaven and yourselves will see to it." Here he ended, and the guests sat all of them enthralled and speechless throughout the covered cloister."
~~ “The Odyssey” (Book XI)

"The ship bounded forward on her way as a four in hand chariot flies over the course when the horses feel the whip. Her prow curveted as it were the neck of a stallion, and a great wave of dark blue water seethed in her wake. She held steadily on her course, and even a falcon, swiftest of all birds, could not have kept pace with her. Thus, then, she cut her way through the water, carrying one who was as cunning as the gods, but who was now sleeping peacefully, forgetful of all that he had suffered both on the field of battle and by the waves of the weary sea. When the bright star that heralds the approach of dawn began to show, the ship drew near to land."
~~ “The Odyssey” (Book XIII)

From Sumerian Legend:
http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html

According to Sumerian mythology, Enki allowed humanity to survive the Deluge designed to kill them. After Enlil, An and the rest of the apparent Council of Deities, decided that Man would suffer total annihilation, he covertly rescued the human man Ziusudra by either instructing him to build some kind of an boat for his family, or by bringing him into the heavens in a magic boat. This is apparently the oldest surviving source of the Noah's Ark myth and other parallel Middle Eastern Deluge myths.

[MaddLlama]

It's a simile. Homer is comparing the grace, speed, and beauty of the boats to a bird. He is not actually saying that they had flying ships. It clearly states that the ships were in the water. Exaggeration was certainly not beyond the Greeks especially when it came to cultures other than their own. To take everything he says literally is to not only miss the point of this part of the story, but you're missing out on some colorful literary devices. You're picking words out of the quotes (which may not be in context at all), and then relating the use of those words as if they meant something differant than the actual context of the quote.

For example, your first quote from book 11 isn't saying that ships have wings. It is comparing the oars of a ship to the wings of a bird - they are both what powers the thing to move forward. He is also telling him to find a country where they don't know that oars power a ship.

The second quote from the same book, I have no idea how that is supposed to be interpreted as someone having a flying ship. Throughout the whole tale, he often uses the word Heaven, it is referring to the place where the gods sit, not a reference to something that flies.

Your other quotes, from books 7, 8, and 13, are simply misrepresenting some literary devices that the Greeks often used - imagery, exaggeration, and similies and metaphors. The ships are not powered by thought, Homer is using a simile (not the words "like" and "as") to express their swiftness and grace. The ships are not alive, and don't have the capacity for thought, he is saying that the power of the ship, and the skill of the men who power it is amazaing, probably because it is very different from how the Greeks power and work their own ships.

And, as for your final quote, chariots do not have wings, and that isn't what it's saying at all. To compare something to a bird, or say that a vehicle of some sort "flies" is not saying that it actually has wings and flies through the air, it is a metaphor for speed. All that quote is saying is that the ship is moving at a speed that matches that of a chariot with 4 horses. That's it.

Also, as far as the Gilgamesh story is concered, I'm not so sure why having a "magic" boat in the story is supposed to convince anyone that somebody had a flying ship. You often read about magic and other supernatural things in myths and legends. This is not abnormal. If you want to believe that everything in every myth written by every culture actually happened the way it was written down, be my guest. But a myth with a magic boat, or a myth with the chariot that makes the sun rise every morning isn't exactly proof that some ancient culture developed flying boats.

[yuvgotmel]

I'll repost the opening statements with emphasis:

These excerpts from "The Odyssey" by Homer are very intriguing. If taken literally, these texts imply that the Phoenicians, who are often associated with Atlantis, had "ships" which could fly through the air and were steered by thought (desire) of the oarsmen. However, if these texts are not to be taken literally, then the entire book "The Odyssey," (not to be demoted as purely a work of fiction), could perhaps be a description of soul transformation with a glimpse into Hellenistic perspectives concerning life, death and cosmic awareness.

Many researchers have found parts of "The Odyssey" to be historically accurate, which begs the question if there were actual flying ships. Even if Homer was not writing about physical flying ships, he may, however, been describing astral travel among spiritually developed peoples.

[MaddLlama]

It has nothing to do with astral travel or some sort of new age idea of "cosmic awareness". You're simply misintrepreting literary devices. Similies and metaphors are really not that difficult of a concept. Homer is telling a story. He is using devices like similies to make the story better, and a more interesting read, and also to make his descriptions more clear. Every author does this.
The story does contain parts where he goes into Hades, yes, but to treat that as some sort of huge revelation of life and death for the culture is inaccurate - Homer is simply expressing what was already known about their religious beliefs. We could just as easily get a glimpse of understanding of Classical Greek or Hellenistic Greek religious beliefs by studying the mythology of the respective times. This is not amazing to me.

[Hacker]

It may not be "amazing" for some people, but it is to me. Thanks for posting Mel.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by Tlcmel

It may not be "amazing" for some people, but it is to me. Thanks for posting Mel.

I don't see what's so amazing about it. Yes, the Greeks had their own cosmology that was recorded in their myths. Just like every other religion. The stories themselves can be amazing, but the idea that the Greeks had their own mythology they understood to be true, to me, is incredibly obvious.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

I don't see what's so amazing about it. Yes, the Greeks had their own cosmology that was recorded in their myths. Just like every other religion. The stories themselves can be amazing, but the idea that the Greeks had their own mythology they understood to be true, to me, is incredibly obvious.

Great stuff on this thread LLama. I don't even need to say anything.

[yuvgotmel]

There is very little that I can say to show you the world through the senses of an ancient Greek. However, I stand by my words on this forum and otherwise, when I say that the ancient Greek perspectives of their environment were/are vastly different from “modern” views, which in comparison, would at best, be considered “mundane” or worse “primitive,” in contrast to the ancient Greek understanding of quintessence and an interactive cosmos.

The ancient Greeks, like their predecessors the Egyptians, had a keen interest and awareness in the occult, especially concerning life/death cycles and the communication of spirit through the manipulation of matter. Through careful observation and a creative mind, the ancient Greeks understood their lives to be both integral in the living matter and the living spiritual realms (afterlife). Aristotle wrote: “an acute mind will perceive resemblances in things far apart.”

It would be correct to say that the ancient Greeks and other Hellenistic cultures have very little in common with the perceptions of “modern-day” people. To describe today’s view in contrast to the ancient Greeks especially, I would compare it to watching a flat screen, where the entire landscape and all that comes in contact with the senses of modern-people is reduced to a more two-dimensional interpretation. However, the ancient Greeks experienced the physical realm in the view that matter is like a door; and that door, called the physical environment, is a route of communication from one dimension (or realm) to another, in this case from the spiritual realm (quintessence) to the living matter. In that understanding, both the spirits in the afterlife and the physical environment are living and able to interact. Furthermore, the communication is not just a once-in-a-while practice, rather the ancient Greeks, like other Hellenistic cultures, realized the interaction on an integral basis. In other words, it was a part of their basic understanding, perception and interpretation.