Phoenicians and Flying Ships (ritual, beliefs, soul, grace, hell)

[yuvgotmel]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

As for the rest of your post, I can't understand what you're trying to say.

Ok... Perhaps you did not understand the Opening remarks ... that I also reposted in the second post (of mine) on this thread. That is what it appears to be the communication breakdown. If you understand that, then there probably won't be much of an argument left.

[exit_and_how]

to me, perhaps it was an equivalent to science fiction. this got ship builders looking for ways to make their ships smoother and faster.

the question i would pose would be this: if these ships really were from alien beings, what does it have to do with religion?

[yuvgotmel]

Originally Posted by exit_and_how

to me, perhaps it was an equivalent to science fiction. this got ship builders looking for ways to make their ships smoother and faster.

the question i would pose would be this: if these ships really were from alien beings, what does it have to do with religion?

The iconography and writings from ancient Babylon to Egypt to ancient Greece suggest that there were "gods" (creator beings) that played a part in the creation of man and/or, at least, the ascension of souls. Those beings were and are associated with astral travel; and were said in Babylonian and Greek writings to come down and interact with humans. It is also stated those "gods" were responsible for giving mankind certain knowledges of the "heavenly realms" and the process of spiritual development (i.e. religions). I do not discount that those accounts could be either a literal thing or an awareness from highly spiritual peoples.

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by yuvgotmel

The iconography and writings from ancient Babylon to Egypt to ancient Greece suggest that there were "gods" (creator beings) that played a part in the creation of man and/or, at least, the ascension of souls. Those beings were and are associated with astral travel; and were said in Babylonian and Greek writings to come down and interact with humans. It is also stated those "gods" were responsible for giving mankind certain knowledges of the "heavenly realms" and the process of spiritual development (i.e. religions). I do not discount that those accounts could be either a literal thing or an awareness from highly spiritual peoples.

You haven't demonstrated anything that shows that the Greeks even had an idea of the concept of "astral travel". This is purely a New Age idea, and certainly wasn't part of the mythology of Greece. The Greeks believed that the Heavens, Hades and all those places and gods existed as physical places. Gods were physical beings, and as such they sometimes wreaked havoc among the people.

I really don't understand what you're getting at here, or why this discussion of the Greeks has anything to do with aliens.

Frankly, all this stuff you're saying about the Greeks being non-monotheistic and all that is not news. I would be concerned if this were news to anyone who paid attention in grade school history class would know. This is the kind of information that any person with a cursory knowledge of classical history would read and say "well, duh". I don't understand why you're treating this like it's something nobody knew before you pointed it out. Did you just not know that polytheism existed as form of religion until now?

[yuvgotmel]

For whatever reason you want to argue this, I do not know. There is nothing here to "debate."

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

You haven't demonstrated anything that shows that the Greeks even had an idea of the concept of "astral travel". This is purely a New Age idea, and certainly wasn't part of the mythology of Greece.

It is not "purely a New Age idea" as you said. The Greek view of the world was very interactive, viewing the quintessence in all things. It is a method of perceiving patterns and meaning through ordinary circumstances. It is a method of communication from one realm to another. It is--what people now often refer to as--astral travel.

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

The Greeks believed that the Heavens, Hades and all those places and gods existed as physical places.

Heaven-hell, life-death, matter-quintessence were all happening on the same playing field in the Greek perspective.

There is good evidence that "hell" as described in Homer's "Odyssey" and later in Dante's "Inferno" is (or was rather) an actual place located in a little town in southern Italy called Baia. Amateur archaeologists have been exploring the man-made underground labyrinth since 1962. Because of lack of funding, the Italian government has not sponsered official digs. However, author Robert Temple and National Geographic have made documentaries and gathered much information on the site. Please refer to "Oracles of the Dead: Ancient Techniques for Predicting the Future" by Robert Temple for more information.

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

Gods were physical beings, and as such they sometimes wreaked havoc among the people.

I really don't understand what you're getting at here, or why this discussion of the Greeks has anything to do with aliens.

You just answered your own question with your previous sentence. The Greeks did believe that the "Gods were physical beings."

ET phone home. Are you ready for your genetic upgrade?

The Greeks did believe that the "gods" had form, came down from heaven (and/or the mountains) to marry and have relationships with humans, brought humans knowledge, manipulated matter, and were often depicted in iconography as having wings.

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

Frankly, all this stuff you're saying about the Greeks being non-monotheistic and all that is not news. I would be concerned if this were news to anyone who paid attention in grade school history class would know. This is the kind of information that any person with a cursory knowledge of classical history would read and say "well, duh". I don't understand why you're treating this like it's something nobody knew before you pointed it out. Did you just not know that polytheism existed as form of religion until now?

I don't think that I made a big deal about the Greeks being "non-monotheistic"; that has not been a part of this discussion or a central topic. Perhaps you are not understanding the material. That may be why you seem to be finding fault and arguing where there is no cause for either.

[yuvgotmel]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

It's a simile. Homer is comparing the grace, speed, and beauty of the boats to a bird. He is not actually saying that they had flying ships. It clearly states that the ships were in the water. Exaggeration was certainly not beyond the Greeks especially when it came to cultures other than their own. To take everything he says literally is to not only miss the point of this part of the story, but you're missing out on some colorful literary devices. You're picking words out of the quotes (which may not be in context at all), and then relating the use of those words as if they meant something differant than the actual context of the quote.

Without addressing your points one by one, it appears as if there is a lack of understanding on your part concerning the Greek reasoning for riddles and poetic speech. It would take an in-depth study of mysticism to explain this to you if you are not inherently grasping the ideas. I'm not prepared to invest that much time into arguing with you, as I do not feel there is a need. Instead, I defer all inquiries on this subject concerning Greek perceptions of riddles, signs, omens, and even "astral travel" to resources that are readily available on the web and in the libraries. Additionally, it would help you tremendously to undergo a study in occultism to better comprehend the history and writings and so on.

[gnomon]

This sounds like a gross generalization of Greek culture. I'm not saying that to be rude but if you are talking about Greek culture are there other references other than Homer you could elude to with this idea of astral travel.

Are you talking about speculative astronomy? I just don't quite get your thread. I don't see the link between Homer's art and alien ships or astral travel. Nor would I think that Homer could be representative of Greek culture. There is so much more to that ancient culture.

[yuvgotmel]

I’m beginning to learn the general consensus of many of the people who regularly post on this forum. Rather than beat my head against a wall and lay awake with heartburn and anxiety, I will attempt to be as basic as possible, realizing there are many levels of understanding present.

It has been a shock to my system when becoming active on this forum, as it has been a very long time since I have been in, what you would call, an average setting of such diverse people from many levels of understanding. My words may come off as rather “high-minded” at this time, but so be it. I’m trying to be as patient as possible and provide information while being open, honest and willing to discuss a variety of things.

Yet I have been met with contempt and argument in most everywhere I’ve turned on RF. So be it. That is fine too. It just means that I will have to go into an elementary frame of mind in order to communicate more clearly.

End Rant.

To put it simply…. As simply as I know how…. here are the facts:

“God(s)” in a physical form = Alien(s)

Mysticism, divination, and other occult knowledge and perceptions = astral travel, communication over seemingly long distances (i.e. “Spooky actions”)

Riddles, omens, signs, and poetic writing styles (in ancient Greek) = a form of divination and occult knowledge

Occult = Hidden

Iconography = Complex symbols put together

This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs.

[gnomon]

Originally Posted by yuvgotmel

I’m beginning to learn the general consensus of many of the people who regularly post on this forum. Rather than beat my head against a wall and lay awake with heartburn and anxiety, I will attempt to be as basic as possible, realizing there are many levels of understanding present.

It has been a shock to my system when becoming active on this forum, as it has been a very long time since I have been in, what you would call, an average setting of such diverse people from many levels of understanding. My words may come off as rather “high-minded” at this time, but so be it. I’m trying to be as patient as possible and provide information while being open, honest and willing to discuss a variety of things.

Yet I have been met with contempt and argument in most everywhere I’ve turned on RF. So be it. That is fine too. It just means that I will have to go into an elementary frame of mind in order to communicate more clearly.

End Rant.

To put it simply…. As simply as I know how…. here are the facts:

“God(s)” in a physical form = Alien(s)

Mysticism, divination, and other occult knowledge and perceptions = astral travel, communication over seemingly long distances (i.e. “Spooky actions”)

Riddles, omens, signs, and poetic writing styles (in ancient Greek) = a form of divination and occult knowledge

Occult = Hidden

Iconography = Complex symbols put together

This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs.

Have you ever read Hesiod?