U.S. Muslims and Mormons share deepening ties (Jesus Christ, translation) - Page 6

Popeyesays · #51 04-17-2008, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comprehend

What do you base your incorrect assertion on?

Revelation is communication from God to man.

I hate to break it to you but ALL prophets derive their authority from Jesus...

What was that supposed to illustrate?

You claimed that:
Joseph Smith's revelations were all translations from before the time of Christ.

This is demonstrably false. All of the Doctrine & Covenants was NEW revelation recieved AFTER the time of Christ. See Sections 88 or 89 for some nice examples.

Regards.

Revelation is indeed from God to man.

Moses, Abraham, Krshna, Zoroaster and Buddha do not derive their authority from Jesus. Jesus was not manifest to man when those Blessed Souls gave Their revelations, nor did They call upon the authority of Jesus Christ,. They spoke on Their Own authority.

D&C is indeed related after the time oif Christ but Joseph Smith does not use his own authority, He identifies the prophetioc voice as Jesus. That makes him nabi, not rasul.

Regards,

Scott

Comprehend · #52 04-17-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Revelation is indeed from God to man.

Moses, Abraham, Krshna, Zoroaster and Buddha do not derive their authority from Jesus. Jesus was not manifest to man when those Blessed Souls gave Their revelations, nor did They call upon the authority of Jesus Christ,. They spoke on Their Own authority.

D&C is indeed related after the time oif Christ but Joseph Smith does not use his own authority, He identifies the prophetioc voice as Jesus. That makes him nabi, not rasul.

Regards,

Scott

Interesting ideas. Obviously I disagree.

Popeyesays · #53 04-17-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comprehend

Interesting ideas. Obviously I disagree.

Okay, let's try to add flavor to the soup by tossing this in.

To call Moses, Jesus, or Jesus, Moses is not incorrect. They are the same Divine Messenger, each is the Alpha and the Omega-the first and the last. This reflects Their divine unity.

To call Them all by Their individual names is not incorrect, because the reflects the fact that These divine souls came at different times and in different places to to renew the covenant with man.

Gleanings from the Writings of Baha`u'llah, pp 59-60:
"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers. "

Regards,
Scott

kai · #54 04-17-2008, 11:59 PM

that all depends on your religion now doesnt it,christians beleive jesus is the son of god,not the same devine spirit ,as Moses and could you answer my question scott if jesus came to Joseph Smith and spoke to him directly than is that devine revelation?, your answer must be no because you are not a christian , he was and so he and his followers say it was ,this makes it a heresy in Islam just as your religion is a heresy in Islam ,

Popeyesays · #55 04-18-2008, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

that all depends on your religion now doesnt it,christians beleive jesus is the son of god,not the same devine spirit ,as Moses and could you answer my question scott if jesus came to Joseph Smith and spoke to him directly than is that devine revelation?, your answer must be no because you are not a christian , he was and so he and his followers say it was ,this makes it a heresy in Islam just as your religion is a heresy in Islam ,

I believe Joseph Smith saw something. I believe he was a seer, but a seer's vision is not perfect.

I believe Smith actually said he was visited by a pillar of light, and it is his followers who assigned identities to those pillars of light. One 'Personage' said 'This is my Son, hear what He says'.

From the Pearl of Great Price, his autobiography section (as the Pearl of Great Price is several documents, not just one.)

"
But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction--not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being--just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)--and which I should join.
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well--I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?
Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects--all united to persecute me.
It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.
However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.
So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation."

Regards,

Scott

kai · #56 04-18-2008, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I believe Joseph Smith saw something. I believe he was a seer, but a seer's vision is not perfect.

I believe Smith actually said he was visited by a pillar of light, and it is his followers who assigned identities to those pillars of light. One 'Personage' said 'This is my Son, hear what He says'.

From the Pearl of Great Price, his autobiography section (as the Pearl of Great Price is several documents, not just one.)

"
But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction--not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being--just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)--and which I should join.
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, "Never mind, all is well--I am well enough off." I then said to my mother, "I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true." It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?
Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects--all united to persecute me.
It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.
However, it was nevertheless a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since, that I felt much like Paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice; but still there were but few who believed him; some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad; and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise; and though they should persecute him unto death, yet he knew, and would know to his latest breath, that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking unto him, and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise.
So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation."

Regards,

Scott

so what are you saying ? it sounds like a revelation to me!

Comprehend · #57 04-18-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Okay, let's try to add flavor to the soup by tossing this in.

Your first argument must have been hard to make with a straight face. How about we finish that one?

You claimed Joseph Smith recieved no new revelation.

I have demonstrated your assertion to be false.

Would you like to concede that you are wrong or should I continue to list revelations recieved by Joseph Smith and you can explain why you think they are not revelation?

Quote:

To call Moses, Jesus, or Jesus, Moses is not incorrect. They are the same Divine Messenger, each is the Alpha and the Omega-the first and the last. This reflects Their divine unity.

I have to disagree with you. In what way do you think it is not incorrect to call people by the wrong name? They are two completely different individuals.... with different names....

Quote:

To call Them all by Their individual names is not incorrect, because the reflects the fact that These divine souls came at different times and in different places to to renew the covenant with man.

ok...

Quote:

Gleanings from the Writings of Baha`u'llah, pp 59-60:
"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers. "

Regards,
Scott

No offense but it is retarded to use text that I do not accept as scripture in order to convice me. Obviously the writings of Baha`u'llah hold no position of authority for me.