Muslim Baha'i Dialogue (Jesus, ritual, Moses, Torah, Tanakh)

[Cordoba]

Salam and Greetings to all

The 2 main questions of this thread are:

Where do Muslims and Baha'is agree?

Where do they disagree?

[Cordoba]

The main Divine reference of Muslims is The Qur'an

Is that also the case for Baha'is?

[Popeyesays]

The Bab established two books that constitute The Book for His Revelation: The Bayan (which was not completed before His martyrdom in Tabriz), and The Quayyum'l Asma.

Baha`u'llah established several books of Revelation addressing different methods: The Kitab'i Aqdas, which contains the laws of His Revelation, also the Kitab'i Iqan, and the Hidden Words (both Arabic and Persian)

We recognize the authority of the Qur'an and the station of Muhammed. We also accept Gospels of Jesus, the Torah and TaNakh, and the station of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Salih, Hud, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster. But please note that Baha`u'llah explicitly says that while the spiritual laws of previous Revelations have not changed, the social laws of each Revelation change in accordance with what the civilization of mankind needs in the period of that particular Manifestation.

Regards,
Scott

[Cordoba]

Thank you Scott for the introduction

The Qur'an is clear in that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the seal of God's Prophets (Verse 33:40)

Do Baha'is consider The Bab as a reformer or as a prophet sent by God?

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Cordoba

Do Baha'is consider The Bab as a reformer or as a prophet sent by God?

The Bab is considered a prophet in His own right.

Another area of agreement: There is no God but God, and Muhammad is His Prophet.

Oh, and one more regarding Isa: We do not view Isa as God either.

I will leave Scott to address the meaning of Seal of the Prophets.

[Popeyesays]

Seal of the Prophets is complex because the word has so many meanings. In both Arabic and English this is true.

Khatiim is the word chosen by Muhammed to convey the interpretation for the phrase, and it more rightly means Ornament, Warrantor, Guarantee of purity and origin.

Therefore Muhammed is the Guarantee of the purity of the origin of all the Prophets, (So is every other Prophet). Muhammed is also the Ornament of God's Revelation. Muhammed warrants the authoreity of God through the Prophets.

Khatiim does not really imply the last or a closed book.

Muslims accuse Jews of binding up the hands of God becauwse they do not accept other Prophets. Baha`i's would say that the pundits of Islam make the same mistake.

Regards,
Scott

[Cordoba]

Thank you Scott

I have The Qur'an in Arabic in front of me at the moment

The Qur'an word in Arabic in verse (33:40) is Khattam, which means the last, not Khattim

Peace and all the best

[Popeyesays]

Islam is not the last religion according to Qur'an and Hadith

• To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached not an hour can they cause delay nor (an hour) can they advance." Qur'an 7:34

• O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them, neither shall they be grieved. Qur'an 7:35

The first section of the verse 35 reads in Arabic as follows:

• Ya Bani Aadam imaa Ya'tianakum rosolo minkum....."

Conclusions from 7:34-35;
1) Please note that every ummah (religious community or nation) has has an end or consummation.
2) Appearance of future Apostles of God is explicitly mentioned here.
3) These Apostles (more that one Apostle -i.e. Mahdi and Isaa bin Maryam) must come from among the Muslim ummah.
4) These Apostles shall come in the future.
This verse cannot possibly be a reference to Prophet Muhammad since when Qur'an refers to Muhammad the reference is made in the past tense and not future tense.
There is a wonderful Hadith reported by Allamih Sahl ibn-i `Abdu'llah Shooshtary from `Akramih who reports that Ibn-i `Abbas asked Prophet Muhammad: `What shall be the source of our salvation in the future?' Prophet Muhammad replied: `Follow the Qur'an because in it God has informed you of the nations which came before you as well as those nations which will come after you. Also because Qur'an contains the laws of your religion which you are responsible to follow and by the aid of which judge among yourselves.'
Please note how clearly this Hadith is addressing the gist of the Muslim concern about future revelations. Moreover, this Hadith is in total conformity with Qur'an 7:34-35 as its Mossadiq (i.e. Confirmer) and its Muhaymin (i.e. guardian).
NOTE: It is perhaps important to clarify an issue about Qur'an 7:35. Some Muslims believe that the verse of the Qur'an mentioned above is as one Muslim friend put it: `the commands of Allah to Prophet Adam (AS) who was the first Prophet. Allah is saying O' sons of Prophet Adam, shall come many prophets after Prophet Adam (a total of 123999 after Prophet Adam).'
This is extremely questionable. Let us examine this issue in the context of Hadith and see who does the term `ya bani Adam', meaning `O children of Adam' is referring to:
Narrated by Abu Huraira:

• Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent (as an Apostle) in the best of all the generations of Adam's offspring since their creation." Sahih Bukhari 4:757

The people among whom Prophet Muhammad appeared are identified as `Adam's offsprings'. The generation among whom Muhammad appeared is identified as `the best of all the generations of Adam's offspring'. Let us look at yet another one:
Narrated `Aisha:

• We set out with the Prophet for Hajj [i.e. Pilgrimage. KH] and when we reached Sarif I got my menses. When the Prophet came to me, I was weeping. He asked, `Why are you weeping?' I said, `I wish if I had not performed Hajj this year.' He asked, `May be that you got your menses?' I replied, `Yes.' He then said, `This is the thing which Allah has ordained for all the daughters of Adam. So do what all the pilgrims do except that you do not perform the Tawaf [i.e. Circumambulation. KH] round the Ka'ba till you are clean." Sahih Bukhari 1:302

Please note that women are categorically identified as `daughters of Adam'. Menses was ordained for both Muslim women and women living prior to Islam, yet the ruling of this Hadith applies to `daughters of Adam', namely Muslim women.
Since I was aware that the Shi'ah friends might not be fond of the Ahadith I've quoted above in particular the one narrated by 'Aisha, the umm'ul Momenin, and moreover, since Muslim friends are very much interested in contextual relevance of what I quote I feel obliged to also demonstrate this issue in the context of the verses of the Qur'an. Hopefully the following example will demonstrate this issue:

• ya bani adama khozoo zinatakom enda kolle masjiden Qur'an 7:31

Which translates to:

• O Children of Adam! Look to your adornment in every Masjid.

Please note that along with the term `ya bani adam' (i.e. O Children of Adam) the term Masjid (i.e. place of worship) which I feel is particular to Muslims appear in this verse of the Qur'an. As a result the term "ya bani adam" is a reference to the Muslim ummah.
I know! Some might disagree with the fact that the term `masjid' as a place of worship is particular to the Muslim ummah. However, it is important to point out that neither Jews, nor Christians identify their places of worship as Masjid. Let us consider some other verses:

• wa man azlama min man mana'a masajida llahe an yazkara fihaa asmoho wa sa'aa fi kharabehaa" Qur'an 2:114

Which translates to:

• And who is more unjust than he who forbids that in masajid (i.e. masjids) Allah's name should be celebrated and to destroy them.

I hope it is clear that the above mentioned verse is addressed to the ummah of Islam since neither Jews tried to destroy their own synagogues, nor Christians attempted to destroy their own churches.
Also:

• innamaa ya'amoro masajida llahe man aamana billahe wal yawmil aakhire Qur'an 9:18

Which translates to:

• He only shall attend to the masajid of Allah who believes in Allah and the Last Day.

None but Muslims are intended by this verse to attend MASJID. Since it is a Muslim who believes in Allah and the Last Day. The theme is repeated throughout the Qur'an.
Now the question is how valid is the above assumption (i.e. masjid being the place in which only Muslims worship Allah.). The following verse of the Qur'an clearly demonstrates this issue:

• wa law-laa dafa-o llahe an-naasa ba'azahum bi-ba'azin lahoddemat sawamion wa biya wa salawaat wa masajid yozkaro fihaa ismo- llahe kasiran." Qur'an 22:40

Which Yusuf Ali translates as:

• Did not Allah check one set of people by the means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries churches synagogues and mosques in which the name of Allah is commemorated in Abundant measure.

Please note that the places of worship belonging to Jews, Christian and Muslims have clearly been distinguished by their particular designation (i.e. churches, synagogues and mosques". If the term masjid was used as a universal term to identify the place of worship for the followers of all religions then there would have been no reason for the verse of the Qur'an to mention the Jewish and Christian places of worship separately. So, when the Ho