Muslim Baha'i Dialogue (Jesus, ritual, Moses, Torah, Tanakh)

[Cordoba]

Those are very lengthy quotes, but not relevant to answer verse (33:40)

<< I hope that what I have mentioned offers you a reasonable criteria for the consideration of another religion after Islam >>

We'll have to agree to disagree on that Scott

Khattam Al-Nabiyeen means Muhammad, peace be upon him, was God's last Prophet

There are no prophets sent by God after him, peace be upon him

Peace and all the best

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Cordoba

Those are very lengthy quotes, but not relevant to answer verse (33:40)

<< I hope that what I have mentioned offers you a reasonable criteria for the consideration of another religion after Islam >>

We'll have to agree to disagree on that Scott

Khattam Al-Nabiyeen means Muhammad, peace be upon him, was God's last Prophet

There are no prophets sent by God after him, peace be upon him

Peace and all the best

What about the last Rasul?

To every nation [ajal] a term; when their term comes they shall not put it back by a single hour nor put it forward. (7:33)

To each age [ajal] its Book. (13:38)

Neither too soon, nor too late, shall a people reach its appointed time. (23:43)

Moreover the Qur'án condemns the attitude of those who believe that, after the passing of an apostle, no other apostles will be sent by God, and mock the claimant of a new revelation:

Moreover, Joseph had come to you before with clear tokens, but you ceased not to doubt of the Message with which he came to you, until when he died, you said, `God will by no means raise up a Messenger [rasúl] after him'. Thus God misleadeth him who is a transgressor, a doubter. (40:34)
No apostle [rasúl] cometh to them but they laugh him to scorn. (36:30)

I am willing to agree to disagree, of course.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

I do need to apologize for mixing the words khatiim and khataam. It's sort of symptomatic of the confusion that is generated over 33:40.

"And were they [the Manifestations of God] all to proclaim: "I am the Seal of the Prophets," they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation. They are all manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last" . . . (Baha`u'llah, Ktab'i Iqan, 179).

Regards,
Scott

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I do need to apologize for mixing the words khatiim and khataam. It's sort of symptomatic of the confusion that is generated over 33:40.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

"And were they [the Manifestations of God] all to proclaim: "I am the Seal of the Prophets," they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation. They are all manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last" . . . (Baha’u’llah, Ktab'i Iqan, 179).

Regards,
Scott

A very interesting discussion, my learned friend, however it does fly in the face of both Prophet Muhammed's [pbuh] and Allah's exhortations to have no intercessors. From my pathetic understanding of Islam, the Muslim perception is that Islam was delivered perfectly by Allah, through Archangel Gabriel and finally through Prophet Muhammed [pbuh]. Islam is deemed to be "the perfect religion". This is part of the reason they are doubtful of any future claims of alleged "Prophets" since the time of Muhammed. God has already given a perfect religion, and it has remained unsullied therefore there is no need of a new revelation or a new religion. The basic idea is that Islam is so perfect that it CANNOT be perverted by mortals as it is protected by Allah.

The rise of a new Prophet and religion flies in the face of this unalterable perception and directly puts into doubt the perceived perfection of what God has already done. Theoretically, any founder and any followers of a new religion would be indictable for offending Islam simply for claiming otherwise.

Undoubtedly I have some angles wrong here and if Cordoba or anyone else from the Muslim faction here on RF could clarify my points I would be eternally grateful.


PS: It is interesting to note that a prophet of God would include a grammatical "fragment" in his writings.

Originally Posted by Baha’u’llah

“For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation.”

Oddly, I would expect better than that.

[Popeyesays]

"
Originally Posted by Baha’u’llah
“For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one revelation.”

That isn't a fragment. The verb is "are". "They" is the subject.

The Iqan was written first in Persian, as the questions which caused the book to be written were in Persian.

Regards,
Scott

[kai]

it seems to me that the idealism of the Baha'i Faith is commendable on the one hand saying they encompass all religions as continuous revelation, which indeed caught my interest, then on the other cut themselves off from Christianity ,Judaism and Islam by saying they are all mistaken and we are the correct religion our revelation is right and yours is wrong . disappointing!

[Popeyesays]

From:

A Bahá'í Approach to the

Claim of Finality in Islam Seena Fazel and Khazeh Fananapazir

A Baha'i Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam


"The concept of Muhammad sealing a cycle in religious history finds rich resonances Shí`i and Shaykhí interpretations of this verse. The "Nahj al-Balághah", a compilation of the Imam `Alí's utterances, depicts the Prophet Muhammad as the terminator [khátim] of that which preceded Him, and the opener [fátih] of that which was closed by him (Imam `Alí, Nahj 109). There is also a Tablet of Visitation of Imam `Alí addressing Muhammad, which says, "Peace be upon Thee, O Muhammad, the Seal [khátam] of the Prophets, the Lord of the Divine Envoys, the Trustee of God in mediating divine revelation, the One that closeth [khátim] that which preceded Him, the One that openeth [fátih] that which will unfold in the future" (qtd. in Al-Qummi, Mafátíh 363). Corbin summarizes the classical Shí`i understanding of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) by an interpretation that leaves open the possibility of the future theophanies of Imams or walí. Corbin explains that the cycle of the Imamate was opened with the function to "initiate" and expound "the hidden meanings of revelation":

After the cycle of prophecy (dá'irat al-nubúwa) that ended with Muhammad, the "Seal of the Prophets," there comes the cycle of Initiation (dá'irat al-waláya), the present cycle, placed under the spiritual rule of the Twelfth Imám, the hidden Imám . . . (Spiritual 58)

The powers of this twelfth Imam, the Qa'im, are further discussed in Sachedina's excellent study of Islamic Messianism. According to hadíth literature, an individual will arise "whose name will be also Muhammad, whose kunya, patronymic, will also be like the Apostle of God, and who will fill the earth will equity and justice, as it has been filled with injustice, oppression and tyranny" (Sachedina, Islamic 3),[36] who will be "the most excellent [afdal] of all the Imams" (ibid, 71), and will command the authority of God (ibid, 162). Al-Sadiq, the sixth Imam, describes the manner by which the twelfth Imam will receive allegiance:

There will be a light emanating from his hand, and he will say: "This is the hand of God; it is from His direction and through His command," and will read this verse of the Qur'an: "Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to God . . . " (48:10). (ibid, 162)

Significantly the Qa'im will reveal a new book: "Al-Qa'im will rise with a new authority, a new Book, and a new order" (ibid, 175). However, this has led to criticism of such Shí`ite sources because they challenge the Muslim belief of the khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) by arrogating to the twelfth Imam the power to abrogate the Islamic religion. The defense of Shí`i traditionists is that Qa'im will implement these changes on his God-given authority. In a sense, Al-Tabarsi argues, "they do not abrogate Islam . . . On the contrary, they are the original, unadulterated rulings of Islam" (ibid, 176).

From the perspective of the twelver Shí`ism, Muhammad can thus be seen as sealing both prophethood and messengership in the sense of being the last of the prophets and messengers before the advent of the Day of Judgement (qiyamat), the rising of the Qa'im and the dawn of a new religious cycle in the spiritual history of humanity. Indeed this the manner by which Bahá'u'lláh praised Muhammad:

Salutations and peace be upon the Lord of mankind, the educator of the nations, He, through whom messengership [risálat] and prophethood [nubuwwat] have been consummated [intahat]. (Bahá'u'lláh, Ishráqát 293, provisional translation)

I beseech Thee ... by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of the Prophets and of Thy Messengers. (Bahá'u'lláh, Prayers 29)

Therefore in one sense, the Qur'ánic title of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) implies that the prophet and the messenger were a function of theophany which came to an end with Muhammad. "With the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, in the Bahá'í view, humankind has entered a new religious cycle characterized by a fuller theophany. In this cycle, concepts like `prophet' and `messenger' have been transcended" (Cole, Concept 18). In support, it is significant that the authors cannot find one instance in Bahá'u'lláh's writings in which he refers to himself as a nabí (prophet) or rasúll (messenger).[37] "

Regards,
Scott