The Book of Job (Creator, creation, America, mission, churches)

[tomspug]

Has anyone read the Book of Job? I spent about six months adapting it into a play (apparently, someone beat me to it AND won a Pulitzer Prize with J.B.), so I've found A LOT to talk about, so I thought I'd start a thread for those that have questions about it.

Probably the biggest discussion that the Book of Job brings up is the relationship with God and Satan depicted in it. In the book, Satan not only is allowed in the presence of God, God gives him permission to afflict Job.

It is odd that this is about as far into the book that most people read, considering that most Christians generally accept the idea of God being all-knowing, which can't coexist with the notion that Satan does things "behind God's back". I think that the typical response to this passage is merely evidence of how shallow and immature the faith of some Christians can be. I feel that this is more the fault of churches who do not address typical questions non-believers ask. Unfortunately, American churches do not focus on ministry as much as focusing on personal faith.

Ironically, the meat of this book is focused on exactly that: the self. If I had to pick one theme I see in this book, it is Pride. By the way, I do consider the Book of Job to be literature and not literal history (if it is history, it doesn't matter, because history is obviously not why the book was written). More specifically, it appears to be written in dramatic form, perhaps an early play. Many consider the Book of Job to be the oldest book in the Bible.

Anyways, I'd love to discuss this book, because I think it is one of the most intellectually stimulating books in the Bible.

[Sunstone]

So far as the book is concerned, is Good what God says is good and Evil what God says is Evil? Or are Good and Evil absolute standards that would exist even without God?

[tomspug]

To understand what the book is concerning, you have to understand that there are certain things that the book automatically assumes.

The Book of Job:
1) Assumes that God is good.
2) Assumes that God has the ability to give and take away blessings and curses.
3) Assumes that God is all-knowing (as established in the first two chapters).

In other words, you could look at the Book as a religious self-study in philosophy. It takes these Abrahamic assumptions about God and studies them, argues as to whether or not these are compatible. I'm sure most people heard about the Book of Job first in their Intro to Philosophy class for this reason.

So, really, the Book is about that very question. All of the characters in the book believe that God is good, but Job does not believe that God is just.

This is the dilemma that makes up the majority of the discussions between Job and his friends. His friends recognize that to question God's justice is to question his goodness. Job clings to his faith by continuing to believe that God is good, but overcome by his emotions, which lead him to examine the injustice of his situation. Thus, he is frustrated with his friends for not empathizing with his situation and ignorant of all of their arguments against him.

[Captain Civic]

I think Job is a prime example that shows that God, although He'll put us in our place, wants us to be truthful in our feelings towards Him. When we aren't honest, it hinders the relationship, like any other. So Job was honest in his feelings in the matter, and in the end God blessed him.

[astarath]

At which point in Job does Satan do something that God is unaware of?

[tomspug]

Never. That's the point. Some people get their feathers ruffled at the idea of God giving Satan permission to hurt people, but isn't that what we believe? That God is all-knowing and all-powerful? So obviously, he's allowing Satan to hurt people (or, he's allowing sin to exist). Some Christians have trouble accepting this. It's easy to see why, but it makes sense.

[gnomon]

Originally Posted by tomspug

Has anyone read the Book of Job? I spent about six months adapting it into a play (apparently, someone beat me to it AND won a Pulitzer Prize with J.B.), so I've found A LOT to talk about, so I thought I'd start a thread for those that have questions about it.

Probably the biggest discussion that the Book of Job brings up is the relationship with God and Satan depicted in it. In the book, Satan not only is allowed in the presence of God, God gives him permission to afflict Job.

It is odd that this is about as far into the book that most people read, considering that most Christians generally accept the idea of God being all-knowing, which can't coexist with the notion that Satan does things "behind God's back". I think that the typical response to this passage is merely evidence of how shallow and immature the faith of some Christians can be. I feel that this is more the fault of churches who do not address typical questions non-believers ask. Unfortunately, American churches do not focus on ministry as much as focusing on personal faith.

Ironically, the meat of this book is focused on exactly that: the self. If I had to pick one theme I see in this book, it is Pride. By the way, I do consider the Book of Job to be literature and not literal history (if it is history, it doesn't matter, because history is obviously not why the book was written). More specifically, it appears to be written in dramatic form, perhaps an early play. Many consider the Book of Job to be the oldest book in the Bible.

Anyways, I'd love to discuss this book, because I think it is one of the most intellectually stimulating books in the Bible.

You've no doubt have put more into Job than I have. Though I recall it being my favorite O.T. book.

What I took from it is that God=Good. Forget modern concepts of good/evil but what concerned the Hebrews is that God's laws, no matter what, are what constitutes Good and defiance of those laws constitutes Evil.

Also, for me, this shows the Hebraic concept of Satan as nothing more than an angel acting out God's will. God, in this book, closely parallels the anthropomorphic concept of the Greeks and other ancient cultures.

The most important part of the book is the end where God asks Job exactly who he is compared to God. Where was Job at the creation? Who is Job, as a creation, to judge God's intentions? In other words, the Satan/God aspect is much less than the Creators/Created aspect I took from it and which to me explains the concept ancient people's had of the notion of God even beyond the Zoroastrian concepts of Good/Evil. For Job shows that such a concept is non-existent. It is merely what that which creates authority over it's creation.

[tomspug]

It's easy to get that impression, especially going into it with all the secular perspectives of today.

Very few people get to the end of the book, which is when Job gets everything he lost BACK and then some. He ends the story happier, stronger, and closer to God. In spite of everything that he went through, he learned to trust God instead of doubt God.

Trust doesn't come out of fear or authority. Job wasn't scared by God into belief. Job spends most of the book expressing deep personal convictions that are seemingly incompatible with his faith.

God refuses to prevent bad things from happening. Job starts out frustrated by this, but soon realizes that his own fear and insecurity is what brought his misery into existence. His OWN despair and lack of faith in God is what brought him into his state of mind. By learning to trust God in spite of what life throws at you, Job was able to fight through the despair and misery. It is this realization that brings him peace of mind... BEFORE he is healed and BEFORE his wealth returns an BEFORE his family is brought back. This is the point.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by tomspug

That God is all-knowing and all-powerful? So obviously, he's allowing Satan to hurt people (or, he's allowing sin to exist). Some Christians have trouble accepting this. It's easy to see why, but it makes sense.

But isn't God directing Satan to hurt Job?

If so, then isn't God ultimately responsible for Job's disease, the death of his children and financial ruins, just as God responsible for Job's reward at the end of the book?