The Book of Job (Creator, creation, America, mission, churches)

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by tomspug

Probably the biggest discussion that the Book of Job brings up is the relationship with God and Satan depicted in it. In the book, Satan not only is allowed in the presence of God, God gives him permission to afflict Job.

It is odd that this is about as far into the book that most people read, considering that most Christians generally accept the idea of God being all-knowing, which can't coexist with the notion that Satan does things "behind God's back".

True, if God is omniscient, Satan cannot do anything behind God's back, and therefore Satan is working with God's permission.

But if God is omniscient, then it's also true that God knows what is really in Job's heart. God would not have needed Satan to test Job to see if Job would stay loyal.

The simplest explanation is that the writers of Job did not think that God is omniscient.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by lilithu

The simplest explanation is that the writers of Job did not think that God is omniscient.

Or they were overlooking this quality to address something else. I never thought that Job was primarily about Satan or God's 'relationship' with Satan. The ha-satan in the OT does God's will, sort of the prosecuting attorney. Here the attorney is asking God, are you really bound by the actions of humans? Can humans force God's hand?

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Or they were overlooking this quality to address something else. I never thought that Job was primarily about Satan or God's 'relationship' with Satan. The ha-satan in the OT does God's will, sort of the prosecuting attorney. Here the attorney is asking God, are you really bound by the actions of humans? Can humans force God's hand?

That is a compelling interpretation, but it is not the most straight forward based on the text.

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands...
(NIV translation)

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by lilithu

That is a compelling interpretation, but it is not the most straight forward based on the text.

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands...
(NIV translation)

"The satan" (not Satan = the Devil, personification of evil) is part of God's court in this story. The implied question is 'will a person remain loyal to God if there is no reward?' I'll quote from the source I used in my other thread:

"This is a challenge that God cannot leave unanswered. If the entire structure of the relationship between humanity and God is based only on human desire for reward, then God is the victim of blackmail. YHWH has commanded unconditional worship and obedience. Any suggestion that YHWH must reward obedience injects a monstrous condition into the divine-human relationship."

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The implied question is 'will a person remain loyal to God if there is no reward?' I'll quote from the source I used in my other thread:

"This is a challenge that God cannot leave unanswered. If the entire structure of the relationship between humanity and God is based only on human desire for reward, then God is the victim of blackmail.

Yes, I understand that. But, if God is omniscient, then God knows whether Job will be loyal to God if there is no reward.

If God knows the answer, then the test is unnecessary, and rather capricious and mean (since it involves the death of all of Job's animals, servants, and children).

Unless you mean to say that God already knows the answer but must allow Satan to proceed in order to demonstrate it for the sake of the angelic court assembled before Him. In which case, I would argue that Satan and the angels should no more be able to force God's hand than humans can.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Unless you mean to say that God already knows the answer but must allow Satan to proceed in order to demonstrate it for the sake of the angelic court assembled before Him.

No, I wouldn't say that at all. I don't think this story takes into account God's omniscience because it's not the point. It's like God in the garden calling for Adam and Eve...was he just trying to humiliate them? No. A different theological point is being made.

I really don't think there is a complete theological consistency throughout the whole Bible.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

No, I wouldn't say that at all. I don't think this story takes into account God's omniscience because it's not the point. It's like God in the garden calling for Adam and Eve...was he just trying to humiliate them? No. A different theological point is being made.

I really don't think there is a complete theological consistency throughout the whole Bible.

Agreed.