Why are prayers sometimes not answered? (Jesus, mission, experience, scriptures)

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

That's a very good point, Luna, and I agree with in so far as it goes. But why would God allow hurricanes to kill people, for instance?

I don't know the answer to theodicy Phil. The world is what it is and we are to make our way in it with as much love and compassion as possible. I think one can't have any kind of experience at all without disequilibrium, which includes our experience of good and bad, harmful and beneficial. Would humans be satisfied with a lifetime of choices that amount to those we might offer a toddler, the red cup or the green cup? If so, why doesn't communism work?

I don't think we see the whole picture. I anthropomorphize God because that's the only way I can make God relavant to my life. I'm a human and I can only relate on human terms. But, one of the limits of anthropomorphizing God is that we also tend to judge God and creation because of the suffering we experience in life. In spite of the suffering I trust that God is wholly good and we just don't know everything, we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.

[Sunstone]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I don't know the answer to theodicy Phil. The world is what it is and we are to make our way in it with as much love and compassion as possible. I think one can't have any kind of experience at all without disequilibrium, which includes our experience of good and bad, harmful and beneficial. Would humans be satisfied with a lifetime of choices that amount to those we might offer a toddler, the red cup or the green cup? If so, why doesn't communism work?

I don't think we see the whole picture. I anthropomorphize God because that's the only way I can make God relavant to my life. I'm a human and I can only relate on human terms. But, one of the limits of anthropomorphizing God is that we also tend to judge God and creation because of the suffering we experience in life. In spite of the suffering I trust that God is wholly good and we just don't know everything, we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.

I can accept yours as a legitimate position, Luna -- and a thought provoking one at that. Frubals!

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

If you were god, would you have allowed Ted Bundy and Charles Manson to make their own choices?

If one of your children wants to jump off a bridge or bludgeon her sister, will you allow her to make her own choices?

Hi MB,

I can't answer your question to your satisfaction, nor really even to my own. I'm uncertain about many things. If it were in my power to stop any kind of evil such as that done by murderers I'd do so. I'd stop my children from jumping off a bridge and bludgeoning their sister. I'd do everything I could to influence those choices.

But I'm a human, so I am Ted Bundy and I am Charles Manson. I am the rabble that crucified Jesus. I am St. Julian. I am MLK Jr. I am Jesus.

This may seem like a non sequitor to you, but to me it is relevant. I don't think that the creation story of Genesis, or any creation story, is meant to tell us about how we factually were created or how God factually set up the world. I think it tells us how things are. God is good, we are good, but something is wrong. We are alienated from God and each other, and as a result we fall short of love and peace. Following stories from scripture, Hewbrew and Christian anyway, tell us how we've perceived our response to 'how things are' should be. It's messy. It is inconsistent. Yet it is a constant striving toward the ideal of loving, reuniting with, God and each other.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

Look, Hope, anyone can say anything -- as you just did. But why don't you try to explain how I have "obviously not put much thought into what [you] said"?

No problem.

Actually, lunamoth gave a good explanation. When you really love someone, you give them a choice. God, in demonstrating His love for us, gave us free will----a choice. A good portion of the pain we experience in our lives is due to choices. Whether our own choices, or the choices of others-----every decision has a consequence, that has far-reaching repercussions. Often we blame God for bad things in our lives that are actually our own fault, or the fault of others. God is not "slapping" anyone around----He is merely allowing humans to make their own decisions, for better or for worse.

Of course, there are some things that are seemingly inexplicably painful, and don't seem to be the fault of anybody. But whether painful circumstances in our lives are due to bad choices or not, God, in His love, can still use any of them to shape us and mold us into people of strong character, if we will let Him. It's not about what happens to us that defines us, but how we react to what happens to us. We can become bitter, angry people, or we can look at every experience as a chance to grow. God, as a loving Father, often uses pain and difficulties as a means of discipline, as a means to shape us. A child that is spoiled and never experiences pain is usually a child of shallow, weak character. An athlete that never trains and never experiences the pain and discomfort of that training will never achieve any greatness. A tree whose roots are shallow will be easily knocked down by strong winds. And the analogies could go on and on.

Pain may not be pleasant, but its rewards in the end make it worth it. If God took away everything painful in my life, I would suspect He actually didn't care about me that much.

Hope this helps.

[Ringer]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

But why would God allow hurricanes to kill people, for instance?

Not one of those cut-and-dry topics but a good one to ponder nevertheless.

There's a short answer that you've probably heard many times but I'll just reiterate it again - IMO, natural disasters are a negative consequence that resulted when sin entered the world. Not only did sin affect our relationship with God, with each other, but also brought us into a conflict with a created order that I don't think was meant to be. For instance, I like to think that in the Garden of Eden there may have been tornados but it was one of those things that Adam and Eve looked upon from a distance in amazement without the glimmer of fear.

Your questions is also morally rooted in a sense. By stating that why would God use a hurricane to kill people, you are implying that you feel this isn't the way things ought to be. When a hurricane produces a strong gust and rips a piece of roofing off a house and that in turn kills somebody running for safety, you feel a sense of something not being right with that situation.

The difference between Christianity and say atheism is that Christianity can offer explanations as to why God allows suffering like this as well as the origins of it. To the atheist, somebody dying in the hurricane is a moot point because their life had no intrinsic value or meaning besides the relationships they had with other people. It was just the course nature took. Maybe God in his benevolant nature used that hurricane because without it maybe a few hundred people wouldn't have stepped back and pondered their own morality and possibly enter into a relationship with him. Or maybe the family of the hurricane victim will experience the grace of God that few will ever experience on this earth. These scenarios can go on all day but the bottom line is this: suffering is real and within the framework of Christianity some of those questions can be answered.

Any wonder why the churches were filled after 9/11? People didn't go run and talk to the secular humanist, they didn't read up on pantheism, nor did they ask why this happened to their atheist friend.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by Hope

Actually, lunamoth gave a good explanation. When you really love someone, you give them a choice. God, in demonstrating His love for us, gave us free will----a choice.

Well, I think lunamoth was more equivocal than that, and she explicitly said that she wouldn't give her children untrammeled choices; no parent who loved her children would. So the idea that free will proceeds from love is simplistic and problematic at best.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Well, I think lunamoth was more equivocal than that, and she explicitly said that she wouldn't give her children untrammeled choices; no parent who loved her children would. So the idea that free will proceeds from love is simplistic and problematic at best.

FWIW, and related to the OP (I think), my understanding of prayer is that prayer is a way God influences our choices. So it's not so much a matter of God not answering our prayers, but allowing God to influence our choices and outlook.