I Love Satan! (salvation, tradition, hell, church, pray)

[dawny0826]

Originally Posted by The Truth

What do you mean by Hitler and Sadam HAD?

Does that mean they are not saved?

If they are not, how do you know whether they will enter to heaven or hell or whether they have been saved or not?

There's only one person who knows the true answer to that. I don't claim to be that person, however, judging by their acts in this life, if there was no remorse, no repentence for the acts that they commited, according to my faith and beliefs, my thoughts are that they were hell bound.

I have no way of knowing what was on their hearts and minds at the times of their deaths. I have however, learned much of the nasty lives they lived.

[Runlikethewind]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

There's only one person who knows the true answer to that. I don't claim to be that person, however, judging by their acts in this life, if there was no remorse, no repentence for the acts that they commited, according to my faith and beliefs, my thoughts are that they were hell bound.

I have no way of knowing what was on their hearts and minds at the times of their deaths. I have however, learned much of the nasty lives they lived.

Yes I would also like to agree with this. Only God can judge them and only they and He know if they asked for forgiveness. I would however like to see them in heaven if, God willing, I make it there myself. I would love to hear their stories of tragedy, of the nasty lives they lead, and how in the end they realized their errors and repented. I would love to see the endless bounds and triumph of God's mercy and forgiveness that He could forgive such people that we see as being unforgivable. It would be a great story of triumph for God.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Runlikethewind

I would however like to see them in heaven if, God willing, I make it there myself. I would love to hear their stories of tragedy, of the nasty lives they lead, and how in the end they realized their errors and repented. I would love to see the endless bounds and triumph of God's mercy and forgiveness that He could forgive such people that we see as being unforgivable. It would be a great story of triumph for God.

There's another Sufi story about God laughing in delight at the reaction of a man the first time the man sees his murderer in heaven. I like that story a lot. The man is surprised because from his perspective his murderer is clearly evil and does not deserve to be in heaven. But God's perspective is different.

Unitarian Universalism comes from the Christian tradition, and the Universalist side of my spiritual forebears were named because they believed in universal salvation. They believed that God's mercy and forgiveness were such that every person would be saved. It's true that people (or even Satan) cannot be reconciled with God unless he wants to be, but Universalists believe that God has infinite patience.

[lunamoth]

I like that Sufi story Lilithu. I agree with your description of universalism...God has infinite patience.
I'm re-reading The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James...wonderful but slow-going (for me anyway). This line caught my eye since this thread is in the back of my mind:

"In the Louvre there is a picture, by Guido Reni, of St. Michael with his foot on Satan's neck. The richness of the picture is in large part due to the fiend's figure being there--that is, the world is all the richer for having a devil in it, so long as we keep our foot upon his neck."

Satan is like the antithesis of Being so in some ways there really is nothing to save. As for all humans, each of us manifest some degree of Love and that is what seeks its ultimate source in God.

2 c,
luna

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Satan is like the antithesis of Being so in some ways there really is nothing to save. As for all humans, each of us manifest some degree of Love and that is what seeks its ultimate source in God.

That's interesting luna; I would love to hear your ideas on Satan some time.

If, as James says, the world is richer with Satan in it, how can Satan be the antithesis of Being? For me, the clearest depictions of Satan that I have is from Milton's Paradise Lost and from William Blake. And as such I've always seen him as necessary for being.

By coincidence, I am just starting to reread "Varieties of Religious Experience" again too! Maybe we can compare notes.

[Quagmire]

Hmmm...all my bible says is, "Love your enemies" and "..turn away evil with love".
Don't see any "unless they"s or "except for"s or anything like that.

I'm not a christian but I can tell you "love your enemies" is a pretty effective form of spiritual aikido for anybody if you can pull it off.

It's amazing how this incantation can suddenly transform your enemies from "evil monsters" into clumsy, confused children, which are alot easier to forgive.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Quagmire

Hmmm...all my bible says is, "Love your enemies" and "..turn away evil with love".
Don't see any "unless they"s or "except for"s or anything like that.

You must have a very short bible.

Originally Posted by Quagmire

I'm not a christian but I can tell you "love your enemies" is a pretty effective form of spiritual aikido for anybody if you can pull it off.

It's amazing how this incantation can suddenly transform your enemies from "evil monsters" into clumsy, confused children, which are alot easier to forgive.

frubals! and welcome to RF!

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by lilithu

You must have a very short bible.


frubals! and welcome to RF!

Thanks!

As far as the short bible, yeah. I like to keep things simple.