Muslims (Jesus Christ, Tanakh, tradition, beliefs, missionaries)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Rex

I'm used to agressive back and forth exchanges.

So am I. But you're in a *Discuss* area and not one of the debate areas on RF. It takes a little getting used to, but you'll get the hang of it.

If Mohammed was perfect then he wouldn't have married a nine year old.

When you understand what "betrothal" means and the customs at the time, you won't make the mistake of saying ignorant things like this.

Much of my tone is sarcasm, which does not carry through on a message board.

Actually it carries through rather well. But perhaps that's just because I have a certain appreciation for sarcasm that many of my fellows do not.

The point is, this: When you're constantly attacking another person, this is how it feels.

Then I suggest you eschew terms like "cult" when referring to other people's religions.

Though if you'd like to have a one-on-one debate with me about whether my religion is actually a cult, I'd be happy to have a go at it.

The way I talked to you is how it feels to be them when you tell them that their religion is wrong and that they're committing shirk and going to hell. I don't remember the last time a Christian buried a woman up to her chest and threw rocks at her face until she died. It happened in the Middle East last week.

No, we just have a woman who tossed her kids off a bridge to save them from demons.

Is there a difference? I can't see it.

This nonsense needs to stop. There is no justification for it.

On that, we can agree.

However, like James, I'd caution you that your post that appears to insist everyone limit their religious practice to their home is not justified either, and is not essentially different than those of other religious telling *you* how to live.

Which leaves you in a rather bad position to say much about anyone else's activities.

[jamaesi]

The only religious folks I ever challenge are... other Muslims.

Go figure.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by jamaesi

The only religious folks I ever challenge are... other Muslims.

Go figure.

Yeah, I suggested the author of the OP might want to meet you before he went off making such assumptions again.

[Jonathan Rex]

Originally Posted by Booko

So am I. But you're in a *Discuss* area and not one of the debate areas on RF. It takes a little getting used to, but you'll get the hang of it.

Fair enough

When you understand what "betrothal" means and the customs at the time, you won't make the mistake of saying ignorant things like this.

He consummated the marriage with her when she was nine. She was betrothed to him at six. If you want to carry a conversation with me, I ask that you be honest.

Actually it carries through rather well. But perhaps that's just because I have a certain appreciation for sarcasm that many of my fellows do not.

Perhaps

Then I suggest you eschew terms like "cult" when referring to other people's religions.

Sorry Chief, if a man claims to be Yeshua returned and fails to fulfill the prophecies of Yeshua's return, then he is not Yeshua returned and the religion that he formed is a cult. Baha u' llah (sp) did not sit on David's throne and did not unite the world. He was not the Messiah promised (nor was he the Counselor that Yeshua prophecied. That leaves only one other option for the Bahai faith. I believe that the Bahai faith is a cult. You believe that it isn't. My belief seems an insult to you and your belief IS an insult to me.

Though if you'd like to have a one-on-one debate with me about whether my religion is actually a cult, I'd be happy to have a go at it.

That's okay. There's no need. I wouldn't debate Scientology with Tom Cruise. I'm not going to debate Bahai faith with you.

No, we just have a woman who tossed her kids off a bridge to save them from demons.

Is there a difference? I can't see it.

That is because you don't want to see it. There is no Christian Law making it okay for a woman to act like that woman did. Islamic Law allows a woman to be buried in sand and stoned to death for sleeping with a man. It isn't the same thing and anybody with an ounce of honesty in them will admit that.

However, like James, I'd caution you that your post that appears to insist everyone limit their religious practice to their home is not justified either, and is not essentially different than those of other religious telling *you* how to live.

Am I an authority? Religion is a private matter between the individual and God. There are churches for Christians and Mosques for Muslims. When a Christian walks around the city with a sign screaming out, "Fags are going to hell! God hates queers!" they are infringing on other human beings right to exist. That should be against the law.
Freedom of Speech was not designed as a right to say obnoxious crap. It was designed for people to be able to speak out against their government. If Christians are angry about anything it should be that we are wasting Trillions of dollars in Iraq. If they need to protest something then do it on the white house lawn.

Which leaves you in a rather bad position to say much about anyone else's activities.

Sure thing chief. Let's just kill this conversation. I was unaware that there is different areas for different ways of speaking.

[john313]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Rex

No, the thing they find conflicting about Christian beliefs is probably Psalms 82
"I have said, 'Ye are gods, ALL OF YOU are children of the Most High."

How can Jesus be the Only Begotten Son if we are all gods and children of the Most High?

there is no conflict with psalms 82 and islam.
if you research more you will find that the phrase translated as "only begotten son" when referring to jesus is more accurately translated as "unique son". unique son because his mother was a virgin, not "only begotten son" because God does not have sex, and beget in the bible tends to deal with procreation in the animal sense, as we see in the long lists of lineage common to the bible.

peace

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Rex

My belief seems an insult to you and your belief IS an insult to me.

Religion is a private matter between the individual and God.

Somebody's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

[john313]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Rex

If Mohammed was perfect then he wouldn't have married a nine year old.
If Jesus was perfect then he wouldn't have lost his temper in the temple and took a whip to people.

just to set things straight, muhammad did NOT marry a 9 year old.
why do you think jesus lost his temper? sometimes things need to be done a certain way to get the message across. sometimes people don't even know what they see, which is why jesus told us not to judge others.

peace

[Jonathan Rex]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Somebody's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Either that or you are misunderstanding what I said.

If you take sentences out of the context that they were used in and you place them together and throw out everything said around them individually then you can make the person say whatever you choose. That is what you have done here. Nothing more.

Idealistically (as was the context that I was referring to), religion and faith is between the individual and God. It is a private and personal matter. Kinda like homosexuality. If a man wants to have sex with a man, that does not concern me in the least. It is not my business, unless he makes it my business. If he does it in the privacy of his home, with the other man . . . then it is no concern of mine. In the same way, if a man or woman dances around in circles nude with a dead chicken sitting on top of their head and the chicken's blood splattered across their chest and then they have sex on the dining room floor with their partner, it's weird . . . but hey, it doesn't affect me. If he does it in the street, then it does. We CANNOT respect all religions. Some religions CANNOT be respected. If it is a man's religion to be naked, all the time . . . should we respect it? Of course not. It is agains the law to walk around naked. Unless of course we're going to redefine the entire world's laws, make the world one place and somehow get everybody to be on the same page when we're not even reading out of the same books.

You cannot respect every religion.
It cannot be done. It is impossible.

Moses and Mohammed (by agreeing with Moses) taught that homosexuals should be put to death. If a Jew or a Muslim kills homosexuals (quoting Moses), are we to respect that?

Get real, people.

[Jonathan Rex]

Religions that teach Murder is alright, CANNOT be respected. MURDER is NOT to be respected. I don't care what religion you claim or what your prophet said, if they justify MURDERING people then the religion is nothing in my eyes. How can we have peace and at the same time respect religions that not only allow but PROMOTE war?
How?

The Bahai Faith, and I do respect what they say about Peace and World Unity. I may not seem like it, but I do. However, I know that their way will fail. Why will it fail? Because it is dishonest. They are claiming to hold Moses as a Prophet. Yet they claim that killing is wrong. You cannot hold Moses as a prophet and believe that putting homosexuals to death is wrong. A prophet cannot be wrong and to agree that Moses was a Prophet and was right is to agree (at the very least) that killing Homosexuals was right at one point in time.

Bahai are dishonest because they claim to accept Moses as a Manifestation of God and Moses not only taught that killing was alright, he also did it himself. He murdered an Egyptian and was forced to flee Egypt alone. He later returned, but was a murderer. He promoted murder as being justice for sexual sins. Why should a person be killed for having sex? Why? Would it make sense to kill our dogs if they hump? Why not? Because it is in their nature? It's in ours too.

Bahai want world peace and they are trying to achieve it by saying, "Look, religion is progressive." I respect what they are trying to do. I do. But their approach will fail (and it should). I do not respect their deceptive approach. I respect the end result, but not the approach in the least. Lying to people is not respectable and to say that you believe Moses was God Manifest and then say, 'I don't believe in killing' and then say, 'Moses taught killing but he was just a man and men make mistakes.' . . . The contradiction is clear. Moses is God manifest until he makes a mistake and then he's just a man? Come on people. We have logic for a reason. Religion and Laws do not have to go hand in hand. Logic and Reason can form World Laws, religion can become a spiritual practice between individuals and God (or groups and God as long as they don't try to force their religion on others).

Science can establish the World Laws.
Religion can establish the reasoning.
Religion cannot establish the World Laws.
Science cannot provide a reason.