Does Jesus have any limitation? (Earth, doom, choices, choice)

[Unes]

PureX, let me give you couple examples from the scriptures to crystallize my argument.

In Genesis story Joseph makes the following comments to his brothers regarding what his brothers did to him when they threw Joseph to the cistern (well). Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant to harm me, but God intended it for a good purpose, so he could preserve the lives of many people,

Now you wonder if Joseph’s brothers truly had any choice in what they did. If they had not committed the betrayal of their brother, then all God’s plan would have been disrupted.

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden the heart of Pharaoh and he will chase after them,

Here, it is clearly indicated that God was involved in Pharaoh’s decision making. In other word; Pharaoh had no choice but he had to do what he did.

As you see my argument is in harmony with these passages. Here you might criticize me how do I refer to the scriptures for the evidence since I do not believe the scriptures to be word of God. I do believe all the religious myths are the Man’s wisdom regarding his/hers experiences of deity. So here simply I am referring to the same conclusions which the ancient Man had arrived regarding this issue.

May God Bless us All,
Unes

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Unes

Katzpur, when we believe in the existence of a Creator, then we assume that Creator purely has our best interest in mind, and there is no conflict of interest at play. As a result that Creator needs to be perfect himself. An imperfect Creator needs to work on his own deficiencies and he will not be suitable to point out our ultimate interest.

I agree with this statement, but I fail to see how a belief in an all-knowing God invalidates the belief in our free will. I don't see us as God's puppets. He knows us perfectly, but I don't believe He has mapped out every event that will ever happen to us.

[SB Habakuk]

This "system of Things" came about with the help of what is called Forethought- its condition and result have already been summed up in the Equation it is non-exsistant.
for it never existed.
It existance is a mere breath of eternity- What is before it will succed it- i.e.- the true heaven and the true earth of which it is an replica-

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Unes

Now you wonder if Joseph’s brothers truly had any choice in what they did. If they had not committed the betrayal of their brother, then all God’s plan would have been disrupted.

The quote clearly indicates that they did have a choice, as it says that they meant to harm him.

Originally Posted by Unes

[b]Exodus 14:4 ... Here, it is clearly indicated that God was involved in Pharaoh’s decision making. In other word; Pharaoh had no choice but he had to do what he did.

Yes, but of ALL THE INSTACES of man's behavior in the bible, this is the ONLY ONE in which God meddles with man's freedom of choice. And when God does so, he clearly says that he does so. Yet you're trying to use this one single stated instance to imply that all the other instances (that are not so stated) are also a denial of free will, even when it is stated that man had free will in all those other instances. The reasoning, here, is not sound. You're trying to use one anomaly to set a standard that clearly is not there.

Originally Posted by Unes

As you see my argument is in harmony with these passages.

I am seeing that your argument, in this case, is not reasonable.

[Unes]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I agree with this statement, but I fail to see how a belief in an all-knowing God invalidates the belief in our free will. I don't see us as God's puppets. He knows us perfectly, but I don't believe He has mapped out every event that will ever happen to us.

Katzpur, after accepting the existence of a perfect Creator, then according to the classical logic we do end up with Fatalistic view. However because of our discoveries in Quantum Physics about the Duality nature of the elementary particles in my site under “Civility / Fate Argument” I have briefly explored the possibility of the “Dual Free Choices”. I feel our intelligence in this area still is very primitive and we need to gain much more knowledge before we can absorb these complexities in our existence.

Originally Posted by PureX

The quote clearly indicates that they did have a choice, as it says that they meant to harm him.

PureX, it is clear that we have very different foundations for our common sense. But do you honestly think your statement in this case has addressed the issue which I had raised in my statement?

In my analysis I presented the whole verse, even the part which apparently was contradicting my conclusion (“As for you, you meant to harm me,”). But my conclusion was clearly raising a point regarding the over all result of the story, and then I concluded about the contradiction in our perception regarding our “Free Will”. Yes, Joseph brothers intended to harm their brother, however the question arises; if God’s plan had to be fulfilled, then could they change their action? As I said earlier in the classical form of logic we have to conclude Joseph brothers had no choice in their decision.

Originally Posted by PureX

Yet you're trying to use this one single stated instance to imply that all the other instances

PureX, are you sure this was the single instance which God influenced our lives? Then, what do you really mean when you say “God Bless You!”? How could God bless the condition of my life without influencing the people and the events which construct my life? Here I have to emphasis all those blessing are meant to affect my condition in the future.

I guess at least you admit God is hailing millions of sick people every year. Do you deny the signs which the believers are talking about which are affecting their decision making every day? In these instances God allowed us to consciously observe his influences in our decision making. We all agree those signs are affecting the choices which we would be making. You might argue; still it would be our “Free Will” to make our choices. But think about it, the elements which influences us to make our decisions they all are arising from a deeply complex system which are all out of our reach. And according to Quantum Physics this domain will always remain out of the human’s reach. And our perception of “Free Will” will remain as a paradox which requires higher intelligence to digest it.

Genesis 41:1 At the end of two full years Pharaoh had a dream. As he was standing by the Nile, 41:2 seven fine-looking, fat cows were coming up out of the Nile, and they grazed in the reeds. 41:3 Then seven bad-looking, thin cows were coming up after them from the Nile, and they stood beside the other cows at the edge of the river.

Don’t you think the drought conditions which was out of the control of the people, did affect the decision making of the people who had to live in that drought condition? This is the macroscopic view of the situation, now when we apply this affect to a simple decision making which an individual has to make about anything, the same environmental factors are at play and they are influencing that simple decision. We vividly have seen the effect of the environment in our decision making. Now when we interject God in our environment, with all those characteristics, then, don’t you think the scenario of “Free Will” becomes much murkier?

May God Bless us All,
Unes

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Unes

In my analysis I presented the whole verse, even the part which apparently was contradicting my conclusion (“As for you, you meant to harm me,”). But my conclusion was clearly raising a point regarding the over all result of the story, and then I concluded about the contradiction in our perception regarding our “Free Will”. Yes, Joseph brothers intended to harm their brother, however the question arises; if God’s plan had to be fulfilled, then could they change their action? As I said earlier in the classical form of logic we have to conclude Joseph brothers had no choice in their decision.

I see no reason, or evidence within these quotes, to suggest to me that they could not have changed their desire (or their actions), or that God could not have fulfilled his goal, regardless of their actions.

Originally Posted by Unes

PureX, are you sure this was the single instance which God influenced our lives? Then, what do you really mean when you say “God Bless You!”? How could God bless the condition of my life without influencing the people and the events which construct my life? Here I have to emphasis all those blessing are meant to affect my condition in the future.

I don't say that. And if I did, it would likely be intended as a generalization of good fortune.

Originally Posted by Unes

I guess at least you admit God is hailing millions of sick people every year. Do you deny the signs which the believers are talking about which are affecting their decision making every day? In these instances God allowed us to consciously observe his influences in our decision making. We all agree those signs are affecting the choices which we would be making. You might argue; still it would be our “Free Will” to make our choices. But think about it, the elements which influences us to make our decisions they all arising from a deeply complex system which are all out of reach. And according to Quantum Physics this domain will always remain out of the human’s reach. And our perception of “Free Will” will remain as a paradox which requires higher intelligence to digest it.

But this whole "out of reach" business cuts both ways, then. "We don't know" means that we don't know. It doesn't mean that we have free will, or that we don't have free will. From OUR perspective, we clearly have a limited free will. We can't know what is true from perspectives that we can't experience. So it's a moot question.

Originally Posted by Unes

Genesis 41:1 At the end of two full years Pharaoh had a dream. As he was standing by the Nile, 41:2 seven fine-looking, fat cows were coming up out of the Nile, and they grazed in the reeds. 41:3 Then seven bad-looking, thin cows were coming up after them from the Nile, and they stood beside the other cows at the edge of the river.

Don’t you think the drought conditions which was out of the control of the people, did affect the decision making of the people who had to live in that drought condition? This is the macroscopic view of the situation, now when we apply this affect to a simple decision making which an individual has to make about anything, the same environmental factors are at play and they are influencing that simple decision. We vividly have seen the effect of the environment in our decision making. Now when we interject God in our environment, with all those characteristics, then, don’t you think the scenario of “Free Will” becomes much murkier?

Obviously, we don't have unlimited free will, and we are limited by the form of our own existence. I was never arguing that we have unlimited free will. So yes, our will is limited by the possibilities apparent to us. Nevertheless, at any given time, various possibilities are apparent to us, and these offer us the freedom to choose among them. This remains true whether God exists or not. So I don't see these limitations as necessarily being evidence of God forcing me to do something.

[athanasius]

Does Jesus have any limitation?

Well it depends. Since Jesus has 2 Natures, A human Nature and a Divine Nature(The hypostatic union) then his Human nature could have limitations as we see in the Gospels but his divine nature does not as we also see in the Gospels.

[Jonathan Rex]

Edited wrong forum

[john313]

Originally Posted by Unes

If Jesus is divine and he knows everything then for sure Jesus knows our future and our fate. If Jesus knows our fate then how can we violate our fate? And where is our choice to sin or to be virtuous and do good?

May God Bless us All,
Unes

jesus has the same limitations as every other human being

peace