Prophet Mohammed in the Jewish Bible (translation, Isaiah, myth, prophecy)

[Islam]

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." {Isaiah 29:12}

"The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." {Hadeeth Sahih Bukhari 1:1:003}

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/

[Ody]

Nevermind, it was moved.

[gnostic]

Please note I had written this originally in the Biblical Debates in the topic, Mohammad (post 98). But this reply is most relevant here too.

---------------------------

Here is one Muslim interpretation of Isaiah 29:12, which is quite popular among Muslims, but I found to be very weak in interpretation, and taken quite out of context.

(Nawab had used this quote in the thread, Mohammad post 55, to indicate this referred to Muhammad, but I have seen other Muslims use this same quote, elsewhere.)

Originally Posted by KJV

and the writing is delivered to him that is not learned, saying: 'Read this, I pray thee'; and he saith: 'I am not learned.'

Originally Posted by JPS

...and if the document is handed to the one who who cannot read and he is asked to read it, he will say, " I can't read."

I think that many Muslims used this quote to say that this quote identifies their prophet Muhammad, because he was illiterate.

Now, I have a lot of problem with this interpretation: One, in which Muslims has basically ignored the surrounding passages in this chapter (29), particularly from verses 1 to 14. When you read all these verses completely, you will find that you have taken verse 12 out of context. The original meaning of verse 12 is lost, because of the way you have interpreted it.

This argument is weak, if you read all the verses in this chapter, and you realise that it has absolutely nothing to do with a prophet who can't read.

I can quote these passages to explain my position, but I think I will summarise most of it and quote only the vital part for understanding the verses, and leave the rest of you read entire Isaiah 29, yourself.

From verses 1-8, God is speaking against Ariel, another name for Jerusalem, of how he will have enemies of Judah (and Israel) laid siege to the city. There would be war upon Zion.

The important part is here:

Originally Posted by Isaiah 29:9-14 (JPS) translation

Act stupid and be stupefied!
Act blind and be blinded!
(They are drunk, but not from wine,
They stagger, but not from liqour.)
For the LORD has spread over you
A spirit of deep sleep,
And has not shut your eyes, the prophets,
And covered you heads, the seers;
So that all prophecy has been to you
Like the words of a sealed document.

If it is handed to one who can read and he is asked to read it, he will say, "I can't, because it is sealed"; and if the document is handed to one who cannot read and he is asked to read it, he will say, "I can't read."

My LORD said
Because that people has approached ME with its mouth
And honored ME with its lips,
But he has kept its heart far from ME,
And its worship of ME has been
A commandment of men, learned by rote -
Truly, I shall further baffer that people
With bafflement upon bafflement;
And the wisdom of its wise shall fail,
And the prudence of its prudent shall vanish.

(Verse 12, is coloured brown, but the bold part is the text that I wanted to emphasis.)

Why do Muslims completely ignore 9-11 and then 13-14?

If verse 12 really applies to Muhammad, then so should 9-11 and 13-14. Then, he is only the one who can't read (verse 12), but Muhammad would also be the fool, who is drunk and stagger, without touching liquor (in verses 9-11, "...Act stupidly, and be stupified. Act blind, be blinded..."), and he doesn't understand or know how to interpret the messages before him because God will baffle him (in verses 13-14). You can't use this single verse applies to Muhammad, but not the rest.

If you read Isaiah 1-14, then you would realise that 29:12 is less than flattery, if this is really about your prophet, especially if you take the surrounding text into consideration.

The way I've interpreted these passages is that the Jews in Isaiah's time, will be punished for not heeding his teaching and for disobedience, by letting his enemies the people of Jerusalem, ie Mt Zion or Ariel. Verse 12, as well as 11, has to do with Jews disregarding warning, not to do with "a prophet who can't read".

After verse 14, (verses 15-24), has to do offering hope to the Jews, despite punishing them for disregarding his warnings.

I suggested that Muslims here to read carefully 1-14, before making sensational claim, that are not only taking the original message out of context, but also very misleading via a single quote.

Originally Posted by The Truth from URL="http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39109&page=4"

If you think these arguments are weak so i think reasoning and discussing the issue would be a good deal to start with, not just escaping and starting going off-topic.

No one is asking you to answer some misconceptions founded in websites, it just arguments made by someone and you can prove for him that he was wrong if he really was. So easy, isn't it?

I know that you are responding only to Jewscout, The_Truth, but I hoped that you, Islam, Nawab and Mujahid Mohammed can understand why I also find your insight and interpretation in using OT, particularly in this verse, to be very weak.

[gnostic]

Hey, shouldn't this topic be in the debate section?

[Ody]

I hate evangelism.

[gnostic]

You mean me?

But I am not evangelist. Just an amateurish agnostic scholar in mythology. Religion is only a side-interest to mythology for me.

I've never been called evangelist before.

I would have been insulted, if I didn't find this so funny.

[Mestemia]

Does this mean that any mention of an ignorant peasant is a reference to Muhammed?

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by polyreverend

Does this mean that any mention of an ignorant peasant is a reference to Muhammed?

No. I am saying that you can simply just quote a small snipping of passage and say that's "Muhammad" or that's "Jesus", or whatever.

Anyone can interpret a tiny verse and give all sort of meaning to it, but that passage will lose its original meaning, if you don't take the surrounding text into consideration.

I am suggesting that Muslims should stop quoting this or that to be prophecy of Muhammad, without giving due consideration to the rest of the text.

[Mestemia]

My apologies.
I thought I had hit the quote button.
My question was directed at Islam, not you gnostic.

[Ody]

Originally Posted by gnostic

You mean me?

But I am not evangelist. Just an amateurish agnostic scholar in mythology. Religion is only a side-interest to mythology for me.

I've never been called evangelist before.

I would have been insulted, if I didn't find this so funny.

I wasn't declaring you to be an Evangelist, it was a reference to the OP