How religions start? (Jesus Christ, priests, rituals, Latter-Day Saints, moral)

[Terrywoodenpic]

There have been a lot of questions recently about the nature of religion, the one true faith, the inerrancy of the Bible, and what follows death.

I think a more fundamental Question is that of how religions start.

One of the common questions when it comes to the Abrahamic religions is how or who started them. And is there a significant difference between those factors.

I suppose we can be reasonably confident that Abraham started, at least in the Middle East, the Idea that there was only one single God. At the very least he was the most successful in having his belief adopted by others.

How ever it was not Abraham but Moses who did most to establish the law and strengthen the Jewish faith. It was he who showed the tablets from God and routed out the spreading worship of Idols amongst his people.

Moses is also credited with writing many of the books of the Old Testament, Moses can be considered to be many things, Leader, prophet and the one who put the Jewish faith on a solid footing.

Jesus came along and he was none of these things.
He was not a leader of men in the conventional sense, He did not establish any laws as for a new religion, and he did not even recognise himself as part of a new religion. He spent much of his religious life as a moral teacher. He did this amongst a people who held quite different views on the interpretation religious life and laws to himself.
He regarded himself as speaking as a son of God, to all men not just the Jews.

Mohamed, again was totally different; he became a powerful leader, he was a leader both in a moral religious and a military sense. He too was a teacher speaking the words of God. It was he who codified his religion in the form of the Koran. He was in every way the founder of the Moslem religion.

The Christian Religion was not founded by Jesus, it was founded on his life and work and teachings, by others. The founding of the Christian Church was very much the work of those that followed..

Perhaps the most effective in this was Paul, a man who never even met Jesus, who obtained all his knowledge second hand or through Inspiration. Unlike most followers of Jesus he was a mature and well educated man, used to positions of authority and with strong organizing ability. It is not surprising that even to day his teachings dominate the Christian Religion; Whilst Jesus remains the focus.

Since that time all three Abrahamic religions have been pulled in to differing directions by learned men, forming sects and denominations.
Most denominations, if not all, can point to a founder, with either political or religious convictions who was prepared to upset the status quo; even to the point of self sacrifice or more usually the sacrifice of others.

The LDS differ to the norm, in as much as they have a founder who had a direct message from God transcribed in written form. This is far more like the leadership shown by Moses and Mohamed than the leaders of most denominations or sects.
It could be justified in that it is seen as a rebirth or continuation of the early Christian Church.

To my mind the fact that Jesus did not found a Church, but that he was recognised by his followers as divine, gives a whole different religious status to Christianity.

That there are so many versions of Christianity, demonstrates the perversity of man, rather than the wishes of Jesus.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Terrywoodenpic

There have been a lot of questions recently about the nature of religion, the one true faith, the inerrancy of the Bible, and what follows death.

I think a more fundamental Question is that of how religions start.

One of the common questions when it comes to the Abrahamic religions is how or who started them. And is there a significant difference between those factors.

I think this is a really interesting topic, Terry. Here are some "facts" on the subject, as they appeared in an Ann Landers column several years ago:

Dear Readers: Do you have any idea when your religion was founded and by whom? If you are not interested in the subject, skip today's column and go directly to the horoscope. I found the following fascinating:

If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by Abraham about 4,000 years ago.

If you are Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ began your religion in the year A.D. 30.

If you are Islamic, Mohammed started your religion in what is now Saudi Arabia around A.D. 600.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Roman Catholicism around the year 1054.

If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.

If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are an Episcopalian, your religion came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.

If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.

If you are a Jehovah's Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.

If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1901.

(I purposely omitted the information concerning Hinduism and Buddhism, since you started your thread in the Abrahamic religions forum.)

Now what I find interesting is the fact that she said, "If you are Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ began your religion in the year A.D. 30." Now Ann Landers was Jewish. She had no particular reason to promote one Christian denomination over another, and yet she says that the Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ and that the Eastern Orthodox split from it in 1054. From the Eastern Orthodox point of view, I can see how this might possibly offend. I mean wouldn't they say that Jesus Christ established their Church and Roman Catholicism split from it in 1054?

And as for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we could argue that Jesus Christ -- not Joseph Smith -- established our Church. Yes, He did so through Joseph Smith, just as He established His Church anciently through Peter. It seems to me that most Christians, regardless of denomination, believe that they belong to the Church Jesus Christ established.

[kai]

is there any information on the religious beliefs of Abraham was he always a monotheist or did he become a monotheist at a pont of enlightenment or intervention by god, do you think he was the first monotheist if so what is your view of the cult of the aton around 1300 bc in Egypt

[Terrywoodenpic]

I know very little about Abraham other than that shown in the Bible.
I doubt he was the first monotheist, Just the first successful one, in as much as his faith has prevailed.
As to Aton, if it had not been promoted by a pharaoh (Akhenaton) it would not have survived in public for a single day; as it was the established order won big time;There is a hugh difference in a manifest sun God and the God of Abraham.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Terrywoodenpic

I know very little about Abraham other than that shown in the Bible.
I doubt he was the first monotheist, Just the first successful one, in as much as his faith has prevailed.
As to Aton, if it had not been promoted by a pharaoh (Akhenaton) it would not have survived in public for a single day; as it was the established order won big time;There is a hugh difference in a manifest sun God and the God of Abraham.

my way of thinking is that el ,el shaddai ,yahweh ,what ever you want to call the Abrahamic god did not appear as if from nowhere ,he would have been a god amongst many who rose to prominence. there is another train of thought that Atonism and /or Zoroastrianism sowed the seeds for the Abrahamic faith, the Judeo christian Islamic god did not spring forth fully formed, where was he before Abraham, and all religions get a hand from powerful leaders every now and again. I.E. the emporer constantine --- just a line of thinking.

[Terrywoodenpic]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Now what I find interesting is the fact that she said, "If you are Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ began your religion in the year A.D. 30." Now Ann Landers was Jewish. She had no particular reason to promote one Christian denomination over another, and yet she says that the Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ and that the Eastern Orthodox split from it in 1054. From the Eastern Orthodox point of view, I can see how this might possibly offend. I mean wouldn't they say that Jesus Christ established their Church and Roman Catholicism split from it in 1054?

I think she is saying the Roman Catholice were the first church and all others came from it. I would have thought this would be hard to maintain as there were many Churches established by Paul and others, before the Church in Rome was established.
That it was the largest and most powerful sucessor may well be true.

And as for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we could argue that Jesus Christ -- not Joseph Smith -- established our Church. Yes, He did so through Joseph Smith, just as He established His Church anciently through Peter. It seems to me that most Christians, regardless of denomination, believe that they belong to the Church Jesus Christ established.

I do not think Jesus established any Church him self; he lived and died a Jew.
I think all churches would like to think of Jesus as their founder,
But in reality no churches were founded in his lifetime.

I don't know what word translates into Church, But I am sure what he established and taught was a new school of thought, and a new relationship with God.
through the authority we see in him as the Son of God.

He certainly gave authority to his disciples to continue that work under the leadership of Peter.
How ever it seem is was Paul , not a disciple, who proved to be the greatest teacher and founder of Churches.

That Jesus became the prime focus of those churches, is history.

[michel]

Just out of interest - though I don'rt subscribe to this - there is an interesting site
here: -http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/root.html;

Quite a convincing read of an atheist's view on the subject
( I have just copied the first bit of the argument, the rest is worth reading though)


Nearly all religions have their origins in Secular Humanism. They may not know it, and they probably wouldn't much like the idea either.
When I first read The Humanist Manifesto II, I thought it was all quite laudable.[1] However, like many others, I couldn't help thinking that all of the Christians I know would also agree with the bulk of the Manifesto were they to read it. All the major religions have various values in common with each other and also with Humanism. Many of the ideals of Humanism can be found somewhere in most religions. [2]
Upon reading the Manifesto, it is easy to see that not only would most theists agree with the major part of such Humanist documents (apart from the items dealing with the supernatural), they would probably go so far as to say that their religion teaches similar values.
Could this be mere co-incidence?
Possibly not. When the first human societies formed, from small tribes to large communities, the ability to simply get on with each other would obviously be advantageous to survival. Co-operation is essential for a society that relies on hunting, farming or any other activity that is too much for one or two individuals to undertake. A community that learns to work together for the benefit of all will do much better in the face of drought, disaster, predation or attack. Natural selection (in this case, angry mobs would be quite likely) would quickly weed out anti-social individuals whose behaviour was detrimental to the society. The basic humanistic ideals would fall into place quite quickly in any developing society. After co-operative intelligence evolves, Humanism is not very far behind.
So how does this lead to religion? Religions seem to serve several purposes for a society.

• They help to bond the community together in ceremonies, rituals, grief, celebrations and so on.
• They attempt to explain the workings of the natural world (Why does the sun rise? Why does that mountain spew fire and smoke? Where did the world come from?).
• They give a divine stamp of authority to the humanist ideals.
• They keep the population subdued (sometimes through encouraging fear and enforcing ignorance; sometimes more positively by encouraging peace and non-violence), and at the same time lend power to priests and monarchs.

( Warning : Wild Speculation ahead! )
As early societies grew, people would have grown curious about the world around them. In the days long before computers, telescopes and microscopes, there was no good way of learning about bacteria, weather patterns, earthquakes and so on. People who appeared to have supernatural insight into such things (i.e. imaginative guesswork) would quickly have gained a reputation as Wise Ones, and from there it is a short step to religion. Stories get passed down and embellished with each telling; co-incidences are noted and attributed to the supernatural; miracles, visions and revelations seem to occur (or appear as the oral history passes from one generation to the next - the supernatural is great for spicing up dull stories).
In order to keep the society together, it becomes necessary to say that the original humanist notions are handed down from a deity. God doesn't want people to fight, steal, lie or do other disruptive things. It has more authority if a God says it than if a witch-doctor in a feathery hat says it. These are the beginnings of the pollution of humanism. Once you start saying "God doesn't want us to be anti-social", it becomes easy to have God saying other things, many of which serve to reinforce the both belief in that God, and the power that the church holds over the people.
The Biblical Ten Commandments are a good example of this.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.... Thou shalt not bow down thyself nor serve them...
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work
5. Honour thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long upon the land...
6. Thou shalt not kill
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery
8. Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house/wife/manservant/maidservant/ox/*** etc.