Islam and women (dress code, tradition, elder, prophet, experience)

[Ezzedean]

Originally Posted by Melody

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Peace,

No disrespect, but while this all looks lovely, it doesn't seem to be put into actual practice in many muslim countries based on what I'm reading in a variety of sources....many of Islamic origin and leaning.

If women have all these rights, then why are they shuttled from father to husband and denied the right to an education and a career?

Go speak to those muslim women you speak of and tell me if they say they are unhappy, or feel deprived. I can bet you millions that they wont. Muslim women are to gain knowledge just as men are to do the same, so this would involve education. Just because western society advertises women as sexual objects and food for the eyes, it doesn't mean that it's okay, and it definately doesn't mean that you are free. I'll tell you why. The way western society has advertised women in the media has caused many teenage girls to become depressed and at times suicidal because they fell that there body isn't good enough, or because they are too ugly. Western society has portrayed women in such disgusting ways to the point where many are throwing up after eating, and taking ephedryn pills to keep weight off. Instead of asking why would a women want to be a part of Islam, shouldn't the question be "why would a women want to be a part of western society?".

PEace

[martha]

An educated woman would convert to Islam because the basic premises of Islam are the same as those in Christianity, Bhudism, Hinduism and the Jewish beliefs, to mention a few.
Basically the tenants of Islam are good, but as with most all religions there is the matter of interpretation. In the Catholic bible it says that a woman should submit to her husband. In the wedding ceremony it says. ...."To love honor and obey" It is my belief that cultural influences are at the fore in most respects to Islamic countries and also in European countries, not to mention America. In most European countries and America, women have asserted their independance and proven their ability to be equal with men. In some Islamic and Asian societies, women have not reached that potential, yet. They are beginning to assert themselves, but it is difficult when you are up against a mostly male dominated society that bases it's rules upon the literal translation of their specific written doctrines. In some South American countries the man has the last word about his wife and her behaviours. Many of those South American men have physically mutilated their wives and gotten away with it because of their belief that a man is the one who is in charge and a woman is subservient to men. "Machismo" is the word that comes to mind. Let us not forget that it was not so very long ago in America that a similar thought was pretty much the rule. Women were to be seen but not heard.
The expression, "You've come a long way baby!" is still just a dream for millions of women in the world.
There are radicals and extremist in all religions. As for the christians of which I am a catholic, I have seen gross misrepresentations of the bible. Interpretation is the key. The KKK, or White Supremists come to mind at the moment.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with following a husband who is an upright, spiritual man, with the concerns of humanity in his heart. But a man who tries to demean or keep a woman down just because he thinks he can and should, because of his interpretation of the Word that he believes in, that man has lost sight of God's directive.
Hope I didn't get too off topic here. If I did, then chalk it up to me haveing a voice and being bold with it, and living in a country where I can! That is just the little radical woman inside of me I guess.

[martha]

Ezzedean, I tend to agree with you regarding western society. We have gotten so very wrapped up in the world that we have forgotten family, and God's ways.
It is all about self gratification in this life. We see kids killing each other over tiny little things and words that are so very insignificant. The reverence for the life that the Almighty has given us seems to be of no significance.
Now I see on the news where young kids are beating each other up for entertainment value and posting the videos on the internet. This is ludicrous! Our kids need fathers and mothers who will be there for them every day and good faith filled parents that will teach them right from wrong and teach them love. Islam teaches that, Christianity teaches that, and all of the religions teach that. We have become full of ourselves.If an educated woman seeks out these truths, then I would say that Islam is also a good way to go. Not the extremists way in Islam but the heart of Islam.

As far as a woman covering herself to a certain degree so that her intelect is viewed instead of her beauty, well... I really agree with that . Good gracious, am I about to convert from Catholisism to Islam? Well not just yet. I follow Jesus and His teachings and try to live my life in His Way. But I can still have great respect for the truth of Islam.

[nutshell]

Every culture seems to have it's own experiences with degrading women. Lets not judge Islam too harshly. Our own religions/cultures have probably done the same.

[martha]

To the one who said Maesi to me. I respond (phonetically) Taab Mesh. Then I question are you Egyptian? Tali.

[Ab'dal Hameed]

Assalaam Alaikum all

The "rights and status of women" was the subject of our Holy Prophets (peace and blessings be upon Him) Last Sermon
http://www.themodernreligion.com/pro...lastsermon.htm

Please check it.

To the translations of Chapter 4 verse 34 add Asads http://www.geocities.com/masad02/004pretation.

and read the commentary.

About the so called "clerics". In my opinion, in the modern context we must be very careful who we listen to. The Quran puts heavy emphasis on one s own thinking and striving to understand.And we must read and re read the Holy Scripture.

[Peace]

Originally Posted by MysticSang'ha

I would very much like to read your response to Faint's examples lifted from the Qu'ran where it seems that a husband is instructed to beat his wife if she is "out of line" in his eyes.

with pleasure dear MysticSang'ha

Chapter # 4: 34 (by the way the whole chapter is called "Women" which indicates the high elevated status of woman in Islam ) goes as follows:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allâh and to their husbands), and guard in the husband’s absence what Allâh orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband’s property). As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great. "(4:34)

How can Islam encourage beating women when the prophet of Islam peace be upon him had never NEVER beat a woman in his life.

Look at the following interpretation by MOHAMMED ABDUL MALEK

The verse instructs a husband whose wife causes problems in their marriage to first talk to her about it, then leave the marital bed, then {adriboo** his wife, and all of this in view of pursuing a reconciliation as is evident from the subsequent verse 4:35.

ADRIBOO
The Arabic word used here, {adriboo**, from the root {d-r-b**, has several dozens of meanings, such as: 'to beat', but also: 'to forsake, to avoid, to separate, to leave, to part'.

How do we know which interpretation to choose? One way to find out is to relate this verse to other verses in the Glorious Qur'an and to check if the meanings make sense. In this case, let us look at verse 24:2, which describes what should be done in case of adultery:
"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, - flog each of them with a hundred stripes..." (Noble Qur'an 24:2)
This verse establishes the principle that for men and women, equal actions lead to equal punishment. When for adultery men and women must receive equal punishment, surely there is no reason why they should be treated differently for any lesser marital problem.

Now let us take a look at the consequences of interpreting {adriboo** one way or another.

Suppose {adriboo** means: 'to beat'.

In this case, verse 4:34 says that when a wife causes a problem in the marriage, her husband should first talk to her about it, then leave their bed, then beat her and all of this in view of increasing his chances of a reconciliation. On the emotional level, this certainly does not sound like a very promising course of action. So let us check this meaning against the bigger framework and in particular against the principle of 'equal behaviour leads to equal punishment'. This would imply that when a husband causes a problem in the marriage, his wife can beat him. At which he could invoke verse 4:34 to beat her again, so that the result would be a perpetual physical fight between spouses! Surely, this makes no sense at all. And indeed, it is not what Allah prescribes for the situation where a husband causes a rift, as will be explained in a moment.

Suppose {adriboo** means: 'to forsake, to avoid', possibly, as Mohammed Abdul Malek suggests: 'to separate, to part'.

Now what do we get? Verse 4:34 now says that when a wife causes a problem in the marriage, her husband should first talk to her about it, then leave their bed (forsaking his sexual satisfaction), then avoid her even more (not talking to her anymore, leaving the room when she enters it, and possibly even leaving the house for a while), in order to prevent things from getting worse, and on the contrary to let things cool down and create enough space in view of increasing chances of a reconciliation.

This sounds like a very logical chain of events.

Also, application of the general rule of verse 24:2 ('equal actions, equal punishment') now means that when a husband causes a marital problem, his wife should forsake a few of her rights, avoid her husband in increasing ways, and try to work towards a reconciliation. And yes, that is precisely what verse 4:128 says:
"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves" (Glorious Qur'an 4:128)
Understanding {adriboo** as 'to forsake, to (gradually) avoid (more and more), possibly eventually leave altogether', clearly makes sense when relating several verses to one another.

And there is more. Beating a wife, would contradict hadiths of the Noble Prophet who repeatedly said: “do not beat believing women!”. It would also contradict the Noble Prophet's instructions about anger – which he explained to originate from Satan and which he described as "a living coal on one's heart". One should not act upon ones anger, lest one would do things one would regret later. When you are angry when you are standing, sit down, the Prophet (pbuh) said. And when you are still angry when you are sitting, then lie down. Interpreting this verse as allowing a husband to beat his wife, surely contradicts these rulings on anger.

Furthermore, Allah says in the Noble Qur'an that one must meet bad behaviour with something that is better, not with something that is worse, in order to turn a hostile situation into a friendly one:
"Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (Noble Qur'an 41:13)
Therefore the word {adriboo** cannot really have meant “to beat”, can it?. It must mean something that is better than causing problems, and avoiding the problem certainly is exactly that.

Based on the evidence presented here, it would seem that interpreting {adriboo** as 'to beat', causes several internal conflicts with the meaning of other Qur'anic verses and hadiths, while interpreting it as 'gradually forsaking, more and more and possibly leaving altogether', is a much more logical interpretation that is entirely consistent with the interpretation of other rules in the Glorious Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Noble Prophet Muhammad.

What makes much more sense, is that this verse does not allow a 'superior' husband to 'beat' his 'inferior, disobedient' wife. On the contrary, this verse appears to tell us that a husband must look after his wife (an equal partner who, like he, is obedient to God), and that when his wife is causing problems in their marriage, he should first talk to her about it, if that doesn't help, he should begin avoiding her by leaving the marital bed. If that still doesn't resolve the situation, he should forsake her presence even more, avoid conversations, leave a room when she enters it, avoid her company altogether, and possibly leave the house for a while, so that no problems are added to the conflict, and so that things can cool down a bit to maximize chances for a later reconciliation.

[Peace]

Return to obedience?
When the problem is solved, when the wife is committed to the marriage again, then the husband is advised not to keep using the incident against her and to consider the incident closed.
The exact Arabic wording is: "when then they (fem.pl.) {aTa:** (with) you (masc.pl.), then seek not against them (fem.pl) means of annoyance". The verb {aTa:** (alif taa alif ayn) has several meanings, such as: 'obey', but also: 'comply, comply with, accommodate, give in to', or in French 'filer doux'. Consequently, the verse can be understood to mean: "when then they are committed to the marriage again", or: "when then they give in to/comply with the efforts of the husband to save the marriage", or "when they no longer cause marriage problems", ... Linguistically there is no compelling necessity to translate {aTa:** as "obedient to the husband" . Other interpretations are possible and indeed preferable. Earlier in the verse, there was no reason at all to translate {qanitat** as women who are "obedient to their husband" so that here there isn't any reason to imply that this verse is about a temporary disobedience and a subsequent return to obedience to their husbands. It is not a matter of obedience to him, it is a matter of {nushooz** (marriage problems). And the Noble Qur'an advises that when one of the partners causes a marriage problem, the other should gradually avoid the person who causes the problem, in order to save the marriage - irrespective of who started the strife (4:34, 4:128)

[Peace]

Originally Posted by Melody

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Peace,

No disrespect, but while this all looks lovely, it doesn't seem to be put into actual practice in many muslim countries based on what I'm reading in a variety of sources....many of Islamic origin and leaning.

If women have all these rights, then why are they shuttled from father to husband and denied the right to an education and a career?

My dear Melody-- if Islam is to put into practice in our societies our position in the world won't be like what it looks now. If Islam is to put into practice we will surely be and without doubt the most developed nation in the world as we were before when Islam was really put in practice. Just go and look at our brilliant history.
However; this doesn't mean that this doesn't exist at all, it does exist within Muslim familes who obey Allah and do practice what is written in the Quran and the Sunnah (Tradition of the Prophet).
What you see from wives' beating and ill treatment comes from culture and ignorance and not from Islam.

Peace