Islam and women (dress code, tradition, elder, prophet, experience)

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by Melody

I don't know Jamaesi, but that seems to be the interpretation by many islamic clerics who, one would think, know the Qu'ran inside and out.

Salam, In Islam it is not permissible to take someone other than Allah and his Prophet in terms of what the Quran says. That is the problem people interpret our religion according to what others say instead of the source.

[jamaesi]

So what you're saying then is that the clerics who are promoting the view that women be fully veiled...are in error?

Yes.

As to the rest, Faint seems to have answered it.

I urge you to please read this.

Jamaesi,
I apologize if I have offended you in any way. It was not my intention. I was merely trying to understand why a woman not brought up under the restrictions (that I see based on my reading) of Islam would choose to convert to, what appears to me to be, a religion which looks upon women as slightly dimwitted children in need of protection from themselves.

It was not an indictment of you or other muslim women. Just an attempt at understanding.

I'm sorry if I got snappy. It's very frustrating to face the same stereotypes and misinformation over and over. It's one of the reasons I go on lurks from RF. If you would look into Islam, especially just focusing on the Qur'an and not what the masses say, a little more I think you would find it's a rather liberating religion for women- especially considering the time when it formed.

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Originally Posted by Melody

Jamaesi,
I apologize if I have offended you in any way. It was not my intention. I was merely trying to understand why a woman not brought up under the restrictions (that I see based on my reading) of Islam would choose to convert to, what appears to me to be, a religion which looks upon women as slightly dimwitted children in need of protection from themselves.

It was not an indictment of you or other muslim women. Just an attempt at understanding.

Again there are many reasons a educated woman in the west would accept Islam. The first and most important reason is that islam is a noun and a verb, it is a religion in which the practictioner can believe in THAT GIVES YOU AN EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT WITHOUT ERROR. A muslim does not just believe, he believes that the words spoken are Allah's (God's word) because we have an evidence to proof the belief. If a woman does what Allah's mandates for her to the best of her ability. The satisfaction of knowing you have obeyed one of Allahs commands and Allah is pleased with that individual is something that can not be measured. That is the most important understanding as to why. Secondly you must understand that at that time woman had NO, I MEAN NO RIGHTS AT ALL. Woman were considered property. They could not vote. Many were buried alive as infants and it was a common practice. Propstitution for women whos husband died was commonplace. There was not limit to how many women one could have and if she was an orphan, many men married them just to steal the inheritance. Rape and justice being implemented after the crime was not heard of. There was a system where the husbands used to cheat on there wives with women of brothel house. they also sold women as slaves or rented out their wives when debt were incurred. It was very bad 9 times out of ten. The woman would be killed before they had a chance to live. One of the many rights Islam brought for woman was 1 the right to live Islam forbid the practice of burying new born girls. Islam also forbid the marrying of as many women as you want and treating them injustly. Give one wife more than the other for whatever reason etc. It also forbid the practice of marrying orphan girls just to steal their inheritance. There was a sense of brotherhood and a honor and respect came to women through Islam. For if the rights of a women in a muslim world are ignored it is the muslims who have the obligation of fighting for their rights. Evey woman has the God given right to be provided for by a man. If she wants to work she can but her husband is entitled to none of her money. The woman actually controls the wealth. If a person is married and truly loved your spouse and you want to keep the eyes of the other gender from looking at you, you would wear hijab, a muslim woman wears her hijab for the same reason that Mary the mother of Jesus or any catholic nun or Christian woman.(men have to be chaste as well) It is a sign for a woman who is chaste. Mary wears it and it is a symbol for chastity if a muslim woman wears it it is a sign of oppression. That is the issue There are many rights of woman in Islam all detailed and guidelined in several hadith and the Quran. Woman used to be forced into marriage and Islam gave them the right to choose or refuse. There are more if you would like more I would be glad to give you more. Remember Islam is only defined by the Prophet and his companions not by the actions of muslims today. You know Islam only by the ones who perfected the religion and Implemented it to perfection as Allah tells us in the Quran. My interpretation of what Islam means or what the Quran means is unacceptable. If Allah said it or the Prophet said it then this is Islam If it is this person saying this and saying that. Then you know hey maybe he is not telling the truth because he is not giving you an evidence. Some say Islam is this and that without giving you the definition according to what the Quran or the authentic hadeeth. Where is the evidence. Be careful of the testimonies of people especially those who are uneducated and either biased or religiously racist. It is only through education that we can learn and understand each other. If you have any questions regarding Islam according to the Quran and authentic prophetic traditions please let me know any time. I hope I have not said anything wrong and if I did know it is from me and not from Allah. May Allah continue to allow us to be curious about what we do not understand and may he allow us to accept the truth with the evidence.

[Melody]

So in other words, Islam has the same problem as Christianity in regards to fundamental right wingers who choose to interpret Scripture in a way that makes women seem less worthwhile than men.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond to my query.

[Faint]

Originally Posted by jamaesi

Faint- Six different ENGLISH translations of the Qur'an.

I recommend a little research into the meanings of the word (idrib) they translate as "beat." It has about six different meanings (one meaning seperate... Hmm...).

So we cannot trust an English translation of the Qur'an? Are you implying that the only people who can truly understand Islam at all are those who understand arabic? Who do you think does the translating? People with an anti-Islam agenda who only speak English? That's ridiculous. Why do you suppose the translators would choose to not consider alternate meanings of a word like "idrib" (or whatever) to specify "separate"?

Originally Posted by Melody

So in other words, Islam has the same problem as Christianity in regards to fundamental right wingers who choose to interpret Scripture in a way that makes women seem less worthwhile than men.

Yes, apparently. "Lost in translation" is only the beginning. You have to understand that (1) the texts were written by humans and (2) by using what evolutionary psych calls "Theory of Mind" the best we can do is use the textual symbology to try to figure out what the original authors were initially trying to say. Considering the barbarity of the time period in which the Quran was written...I think it's highly likely that they intended wives to get beaten as a punishment.

[Peace]

Originally Posted by Melody

why would any educated woman choose islam?

First of all, I would like to say that I am proud to be a Muslim woman. Islam has given me all my rights and I find nothing in my religion to be ashamed of.
Islam has given me honor and respect. Before the coming of Islam women were treated with disrespect, baby girls were buried alive, women had no right to heritage………
As a Muslim I can keep always my name and family name and I am not obliged to take the man’s name when getting married. As a Muslim I have the right to heritage. As a Muslim I keep my chastity and honor and I don’t get into a relationship until it is official and agreed upon. As a Muslim I keep my modesty by wearing Hijab (The veil) covering all my body except for my face and hands.
For Jamaesi the veil is mentioned in the Quran in two different chapters and it is a fard (obligatory):
“Tell the believing women to lower their eyes, guard their private parts, and not display their charms except what is apparent outwardly, and cover their bosoms with their veils and not to show their finery except to their husbands or their fathers or fathers-in-law, their sons or step-sons, brothers, or their brothers’ and sisters’ sons, or their women attendants or captives, or male attendants who do not have any need (for women), or boys not yet aware of sex. “ Annur "the Light" (24: 31)

“O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters, and the women of the faithful, to draw their wraps a little over them. They will thus be recognized and no harm will come to them. God is forgiving and kind” al-ahzab"The Allied troops" (33: 60)

While wearing the veil I know that I am dealing with men with my intellect and not with my beauty. My body and beauty is dear to me and I won't show it to whoever would like to watch, it is not a product that to be sold or bought.
Islam never oppressed women on the contrary Islam is the one who freed woman from all the ignorance.
Islam enourages seeking knowlege for both men and women.
In Islam woman has:
The RIGHT and duty to acquire education.
The RIGHT to have her own independent property.
The RIGHT to work [job or business] to earn money, which she keeps it.
The RIGHT to equal reward for equal deed and/or work.
The RIGHT to express her opinion.
The RIGHT to argue and/or advocate her cause or opinion to be heard.
The RIGHT to vote
The RIGHT to provisions from her husband for all her needs and more.
The RIGHT to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.
The RIGHT to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply don't like him. In Islam divorce is suppose to be last resort.
The RIGHT to keep all her own money. [She is not responsible for maintenance of family].
The RIGHT to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.
The RIGHT to get custody of her children in case of divorce [unless she is unable to raise them for valid reasons]
The RIGHT to choose husband of her choice.
The RIGHT to refuse a proposed and/or arranged marriage.
The RIGHT to re-marry after divorce or after becoming widow.

EXEMPTIONS GIVEN TO WOMEN IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCE.

Women are exempt from:

a.. Fasting when they are pregnant or nursing or menstruating,
b.. Praying when menstruating or bleeding after childbirth,
c.. The obligation to attend congregational prayers in the mosque on Fridays.
d.. They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defense of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.
But under normal circumstances they are allowed to do all the things that men do.

- Even when they are menstruating, on special days, like the two Eid festivals, they are still allowed to come to the Eid prayers, and menstruating women can take part in most of the actions of the Hajj pilgrimage.

Islamic laws do not require that women should confine themselves to household duties.

Muslim women have [and are as well] headed Islamic provinces [and states as well], like Arwa bint Ahmad, who served as governor of Yemen under the Fatimid Khalifahs in the late fifth and early sixth century.

Name any other religion, political theory, or philosophy which offers such a comprehensiveness to women by giving her total control of her life and affairs ??? NONE

Thanks be to God who guided me to Islam where I find my total freedom and honor!

Peace

[MysticSang'ha]

I must say, Peace, that you gave a beautiful response to how women are held in some high regard in Islam. I was especially moved by your interpretation for why women should veil themselves in order to ensure that their intellect will be dealt with when in the company of men and not their physical attributes. On that note, I would very much like to read your response to Faint's examples lifted from the Qu'ran where it seems that a husband is instructed to beat his wife if she is "out of line" in his eyes.



For me, these verses are troubling at first glance, and they seem to encourage further subjugation of women despite the social freedoms that Muslim women enjoy............how are women held in high regard in the home?




I think I share the same concern as Melody has for ending subjugation of women in all areas, whether it is state-mandated or is subliminal, I believe it must end in all cultures.





Peace,
Mystic

[Paw]

So we cannot trust an English translation of the Qur'an? Are you implying that the only people who can truly understand Islam at all are those who understand arabic? Who do you think does the translating? People with an anti-Islam agenda who only speak English? That's ridiculous. Why do you suppose the translators would choose to not consider alternate meanings of a word like "idrib" (or whatever) to specify "separate"?

I think we all agree that when words are translated, they can be mistranslated and/or given a specific meaning rather than another.

Here's a fact: did you know that over 90 words, if I remember correctly, mean 'sword' in Arabic? A lot, don't you think? And, obviously, there are many words that can mean different things.

Considering the barbarity of the time period in which the Quran was written...I think it's highly likely that they intended wives to get beaten as a punishment.

If it were written during a peaceful time, it would have a different meaning? If you believe, as Muslims do, that the Qur'an is a revelation from God, then you wouldn't think that he'd command men to beat their wives. It just doesn't make sense.
Most of the things against women are from a nice bunch of so-called 'Sayings of the Prophet'. It is also a collection that says that angels do not enter houses where pictures are, prohibits music, demands dogs (or at least black dogs) be killed... Really, you can find things like that. And more amusing things as well.

Why do I always think that somehow I've made a bad post? Maybe I have...