Islam and women (dress code, tradition, elder, prophet, experience)

[jamaesi]

I don't think there are any revert women on the forum (I may be wrong)

Hi.
(I'm thinking you mean convert? Western woman convert. Also- Not opressed. Threw a cup at the head of her Muslim ex who decided it would be cute to order her around to show off his "woman" to his friends. (Hey, he ordered me to get him a cup! So I did.)
Now in a happy relationship with another Muslim man. No oppression, no abuse. He's actually told me he doesn't want me to cover my hair.)

I don't know Jamaesi, but that seems to be the interpretation by many islamic clerics who, one would think, know the Qu'ran inside and out.

Not to be snarky, but that does not answer my question.

(If fact, it's like me saying that the Catholic preists who molest children must be right because they know the Bible inside and out or that Fred Phelps must be a good example of Christianity cause he studies and quotes the Bible and is a religious leader.)

You said

Faint, please confine the responses to Islam. I realize there are people who interpret Scripture in a way that makes women seem to be second class citizens, but obviously there is no comparison. Christianity does not require women to cover their entire bodies, be under the aegis of their husbands, eldest sons or some other male, etc.

And I'm going to think you meant in Islam that woman was to be covered completely and to the property of man.

If that is what you meant, I would like some proof of that.




And to answer this?

But we're getting off track. My OP asked, what does Islam offer to an educated woman or western woman which would make them wish to convert.

I see a religion that treats men and women equally and calls for justice, respect, affection, and peace between the two sexes as being equals before G-d.



Now, not to get redundant (but being told I am opressed is getting redundant), but you said...

Faint, please confine the responses to Islam. I realize there are people who interpret Scripture in a way that makes women seem to be second class citizens, but obviously there is no comparison. Christianity does not require women to cover their entire bodies, be under the aegis of their husbands, eldest sons or some other male, etc.

and

Well obviously dress codes change over time, but I do not thing it was "christianity" that required it so much as the fashions/mores of the time.

Now I would like to respectfully ask these two questions.

1. What do you think about the verses about women needing to cover her head and being made for man (1 Corinthians 11, specifically) which are part of Christianity being in the Scripture and the black robes that nuns of various Christian traditions wear that cover most of their bodies?

2. Why are you so quick to blame the religion of Islam (and not culture) for the repression of women when I have not seen a verse from the Qur'an saying women are the property of men and that they are to be fully covered?

[Khalid Muhammad]

Actually Jamaesi I think you'll find the word is 'revert' and I think that most opinion is settled on this. It relates to the concept of 'Fitrah' and the Shahada being written on every soul/'heart'. People do use the word 'convert' but Islamically it's not actually correct.

[jamaesi]

Actually Jamaesi I think you'll find the word is 'revert' and I think that most opinion is settled on this. It relates to the concept of 'Fitrah' and the Shahada being written on every soul/'heart'. People do use the word 'convert' but Islamically it's not actually correct.

*nods* I do understand.

(I was just hoping I was going with your logic flow and not about to make an embarassment of myself. Terminology gets confusing sometimes...)

[Cordoba]

Hello Melody:

You may be surprised to know that there are four times as many western women converting to Islam compared to men.

Here are a few readings on Women in Islam from a western perspective which you may wish to look at when you have time:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm

All the best.

[Melody]

Originally Posted by jamaesi

Not to be snarky, but that does not answer my question.

I don't know what the Qu'ran says. I only know what I see and read in the news and internet about the way it's being interpreted. I presume that since these are high ranking clerics, they know what the Qu'ran says. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Originally Posted by jamaesi

(If fact, it's like me saying that the Catholic preists who molest children must be right because they know the Bible inside

No, the priests aren't saying the bible says it's ok to molest children. The clerics are saying the Qu'ran says <pick topic here>

Originally Posted by jamaesi

And I'm going to think you meant in Islam that woman was to be covered completely and to the property of man. If that is what you meant, I would like some proof of that.

Original here:
Whilst Islam may not be the sole factor in the repression of women, and local, social, economic, political, and educational forces as well as the persistence of pre-Islamic customs must be taken into account, nevertheless, Islam and the application of the Sharia, Islamic law, remain major obstacles to progress in the rights and status of women.
Women in many Islamic societies lack personal autonomy. Before marriage they are under the tutelage of their father or other male relative. They are expected to marry a husband chosen by their family, obey their husbands, bring up children, stay at home, and avoid participation in public life. At every stage of their lives, they are denied freedom of choice. They may be forbidden to acquire an education, prevented from getting a job, and thwarted from exploring their full potential as members of the human community.

I don't have the time nor inclination to post all the sites and forums I've gone to where they use the Qu'ran to promote the above.

Originally Posted by jamaesi

I see a religion that treats men and women equally and calls for justice, respect, affection, and peace between the two sexes as being equals before G-d.

One wonders if you would feel the same if you lived in Iran, Ethiopa, or Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by jamaesi

1. What do you think about the verses about women needing to cover her head and being made for man (1 Corinthians 11, specifically) which are part of Christianity being in the Scripture and the black robes that nuns of various Christian traditions wear that cover most of their bodies?

Scripture does not require nuns to wear robes that cover most of their bodies. That was a man-made requirement and, one which has been discontinued by many religious organizations. For the head covering I will refer you to this site for one view. I tend to believe it is symbolic.

Originally Posted by jamaesi

Why are you so quick to blame the religion of Islam (and not culture) for the repression of women when I have not seen a verse from the Qur'an saying women are the property of men and that they are to be fully covered?

I'm not "blaming" anything and see above as to why I believe Islam represses women. They were merely examples and again...this is off track. My OP asked "why would an educated woman convert to Islam?"

Based on your responses, I gather it's because you see it as no different than any other religion and, despite the fact that a great majority of woman are repressed, you see this as a cultural phenomen and not related to Islam....even though many men are saying "The Qu'ran says". Fair enough.

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Melody

Based on your responses, I gather it's because you see it as no different than any other religion and, despite the fact that a great majority of woman are repressed, you see this as a cultural phenomen and not related to Islam....even though many men are saying "The Qu'ran says". Fair enough.

I agree with you Melody that the Islamic faith encourages repression of women. I mentioned Christianity too only to illustrate that The Bible also has passages which make women second-class citizens. But I would argue that the reason you see more abuses of this in the Islamic world rather than here in the west (at least in this more secular century) has more to do with society/cultural mores rather than the faith(s) itself:

More to the point, here is an example you might be looking for in the Qur'an...

6 translations of Qur'an 4:34:

1. "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
2. "Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
3. "Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
4. "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
5. "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)
6. "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

'nuff said.

[jamaesi]

I think your problem is that you are having trouble telling the difference between the religion of Islam and the cultures in many of the Middle Eastern cultures. You were quick to blame culture and not Christianity for past "Christian" repression of women, why are you so hesitant to give Islam that same chance?

Most of the practices that hurt women were being done way before Islam came around and are a purely cultural thing and Islam is AGAINST such things.

The literacy rates in many Middle Eastern countries are low and women are repressed through the cultures and can't educate themselves (even though the Qur'an stresses education for both sexes).
Also, the Qur'an is written in Arabic (and a slightly different one than Modern Arabic, it's like how we English speakers struggle with Shakespeare) and most Muslims aren't even in an Arabic speaking country and might not know it. So these people have to rely on these leaders- and when have leaders ever been free from corruption? The Taleban, for example, aren't exactly shining examples of truth (or of Islam).

I'm constantly amazed at how little people know about their own religions- and Islam is no different.

I don't know what the Qu'ran says. I only know what I see and read in the news and internet about the way it's being interpreted. I presume that since these are high ranking clerics, they know what the Qu'ran says. So I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I'm getting at where does the Qur'an say these things about women. Try going to the source. The Qur'an is a much better representative for Islam than anything else.

I can say the Qur'an talks about pink spotted, rainbow-maned hippogryphs and their care- just because I say that, does that make it true? (And how would you even know if you refuse to do your own research on it?)

Fred Phelps and many other "Christian leaders" preach about a cruel hateful G-d who is going to send everyone else but them and those who follow their ways to Hell. Does that mean they're right?

I live in a fairly conservative Christian area- I've been told I'm going to hell, I've had my holy books thrown in the trash by people who carry around Bibles, I've been held down and kicked into the genitals for being Arab and being queer and told again, I was going to hell. I don't take these examples as Christian, I know they aren't. Sadly, what people, even "leaders" do or say, is not always representative of the religion they follow.

One wonders if you would feel the same if you lived in Iran, Ethiopa, or Afghanistan.

Yep, I would. I would feel that the cultures need lots of improvement and to actually follow Islam, though.

You'll find that in a lot of countries that things like "Honour Killings" which are blamed on Islam but have no basis in it are carried out by all religions in that country, from Muslims to Christians.

I don't have the time nor inclination to post all the sites and forums I've gone to where they use the Qu'ran to promote the above.

Well then surely you can post the verses from the Qur'an contained there that say women need to cover completely and are less than men?

Scripture does not require nuns to wear robes that cover most of their bodies. That was a man-made requirement and, one which has been discontinued by many religious organizations. For the head covering I will refer you to this site for one view. I tend to believe it is symbolic.

Qur'an does not require all women to wear robes that cover most of their bodies either.

I'm not "blaming" anything and see above as to why I believe Islam represses women. They were merely examples and again...this is off track. My OP asked "why would an educated woman convert to Islam?"

When I told you why I converted to Islam you took it off topic, you also took it "off topic" in why you couldn't see why an educated and/or Western woman would ever convert.

I still fully believe what I said about Islam and why I converted- I have read the Qur'an and studied it. I've not listened only to so called experts. As the Qur'an says, I need no other judge than the book itself.

Based on your responses, I gather it's because you see it as no different than any other religion and, despite the fact that a great majority of woman are repressed, you see this as a cultural phenomen and not related to Islam....even though many men are saying "The Qu'ran says". Fair enough.

Yes, and I'm STILL WAITING from them (and you) for the verses from the Qur'an that say a woman should cover all of her body or even her hair or that considers women lesser than men before G-d. (Hint- It doesn't.)

[jamaesi]

Faint- Six different ENGLISH translations of the Qur'an.

I recommend a little research into the meanings of the word (idrib) they translate as "beat." It has about six different meanings (one meaning seperate... Hmm...).

Better translations of admonish are advise (but I've admonished my mate when he's screwed up, and I pretty much expect the same from fits of st