Is Paradise and Heaven the same place? (Jesus Christ, Earth, Eden)

[Unes]

According to David Rohl's research from the clues that he got from the Genesis story, Paradise, Garden of Eden, was located at the present Tabriz-Iran.
From all the clues we have we sense Heaven should be somewhere among the stars.

Where does God, the Old Man, live?
Did God lose his Paradise?

Are we going to the Paradise or to Heaven or to the New Jerusalem?

With so many Christians in the history of the church, is the New Jerusalem large enough to hold all those Christians? The New Jerusalem dimensions look awfully small for these many Christians! The same way that Noah's Ark was too small for all those animals.

These issues are so puzzling for me.

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Unes

Where does God, the Old Man, live?

Paradise and Heaven are two distinct places. God lives in Heaven -- at least according to the Bible, which I realize not everyone accepts.

Are we going to the Paradise or to Heaven or to the New Jerusalem?

I believe that immediately after death, the spirits of the righteous will be received into Paradise to await the resurrection of their physical bodies. Once we are resurrected, we will stand before God to be judged and will be permitted entrance into Heaven.

Jesus Christ told the thief who hung on the cross beside Him that He would see Him "on this day" in Paradise. But as of Easter morning when He first saw Mary near the Garden Tomb, He told her He had not yet ascended to Heaven. If Heaven and Paradise were one and the same, these two statements would be contradictory.

With so many Christians in the history of the church, is the New Jerusalem large enough to hold all those Christians? The New Jerusalem dimensions look awfully small for these many Christians!

I don't believe the New Jerusalem will ever be populated with all of the Christians who have ever lived. When Christ returns to establish His millennial reign, He will build the New Jerusalem. It will be the headquarters, so to speak, of His eartly Church during that 1000-year period of time. But not everyone who is alive during the Millennium will live there.

[joeboonda]

Where does God, the Old Man, live?

In Heaven.

Did God lose his Paradise?

No.

Are we going to the Paradise or to Heaven or to the New Jerusalem?

To Heaven, then the New Jerusalem on the new earth.

With so many Christians in the history of the church, is the New Jerusalem large enough to hold all those Christians? The New Jerusalem dimensions look awfully small for these many Christians! The same way that Noah's Ark was too small for all those animals.

Yes, it is cubed and would cover North America from the northern border to the southern border from the Mississippi to the Atlantic. And we will also be on the new earth, and come in and out of the city of New Jerusalem worshipping God. The Ark was more than big enough for the animals. There is good info on the web about all this, google!

These issues are so puzzling for me.

As they are to many, study, and research, and you will find the answers, and be more rooted and grounded in your faith.

May God Bless us all,

Amen.Unes

[joeboonda]

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct19.htm

Here is a link about paradise and heaven.

[Unes]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

Yes, it is cubed and would cover North America from the northern border to the southern border from the Mississippi to the Atlantic.

joeboonda,
Where did you get this statement? I am sure it is not in the Bible. Are you writing a new revelation?

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Unes]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

No.

So paradise is somewhere on this Earth, that nobody can find it?
Or Perhapse Paradise will arrive with the NEW Earth! Then this contradict the Jesus statement to the the thief who hung on the cross beside Him that he would see Him "on this day" in Paradise.

I hope you are not saying that Paradise is an invisible place, because that would make the resurrected Jesus an invisible man, and that does contradict with the Bible's version of the events.

In the case of an Invisible paradise; then Adam and Eve were hallucinating about their experiences in the Paradise!

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Harvster]

Paradise according to Christ and the OT was next to Hell separated by a Gulf. The saints of the old testament and all those up until Christ rose again where in Paradise. When Christ descended he freed these people and took them upto heaven meaning that Paradise is now empty.
When Christ states to the theif that he will be in Paradise he is speaking of this area. This is why Christ says on this day, because Christ met him there to free him and take him into heaven, therefore as Katz said there is no contradiction when Christ says he has not acsended yet.

The garden of Eden was probally lost in the flood and was not the home of God, as God created it for Adam, not himself.

[Nehustan]

I think to quickly answer this question I will refer to an article I put in that section of RF....

"It seems appropriate at this point to briefly consider the Islamic concept of Tawheed or Unity, which can be considered the foundation of monotheism upon which the five pillars of Islam, Arkan ul Islam, (Sarwar, 1984, p.40) stand. We will look at how the Islamic cosmology is figured in relation to the absolute and infinite beyond the creation, considering selected ayat from the quran, and hadith directly in relation to these ayat. The first ayat to be considered is ‘Ayat al Kursi’ (2:255), which may be considered one of the most recited verses of the Quran. Although the word ‘Kursi’ is often translated as ‘Throne’ it is considered more correct in its Quranic context to consider it as ‘footstool’

Allah! There is no god but He, The Living, The Self-subsisting, Supporter of all, No slumber can seize Him nor Sleep. His are all the things in the heavens and on earth. Who is thee can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to his creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of his knowledge except as He willeth. His Footstool doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and he feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is Most High, The Supreme (in glory). (Quran, Surah 2, Ayat 255)


This when considered in light of modern scientific cosmology (Ar Rahaman At Tarjumana, 1980), could signify that the Footstool extends over the heavens and certainly was considered historically, as with Ibn ‘Arabi, to provide a single unifying symbolic framework for the full range of practical spiritual questions and theoretical issues (ontological, cosmological, theological, etc.)’ (Morris, 1987, p.630). The ‘heavens’, may indeed be taken to mean our own created universe. If the universe exists, as posited by modern scientific paradigm, as spherical, then the Kursi that extends over it must encompass it. ‘Al-Arsh’ or ‘The Throne’ is considered to lie at an unperceivable distance beyond ‘Al-Kursi’, beyond what is referred to as a sea, and just as the Kursi extends over the creation, so does the Arsh extend over Paradise. Despite being unable to verify this cosmology via scientific method, when asked of the relation between the Kursi and the Arsh;

It is confirmed from Abu Dharr that the Prophet said; “The seven heavens are to the Kursi but like a ring thrown in a desert land. And the superiority of the Arsh compared to that of the Kursi is like the superiority of that desert compared to the ring. (Al-Sa‘di, 2003, p.274, note 147)

‘Firdaws’, the highest part of paradise is described thus,

The highest of the degrees of Paradise is al-Firdaws, as it was narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “… When you ask of Allaah, ask Him for al-Firdaws, for it is in the middle of Paradise and is the highest part of Paradise, and above it is the Throne of the Most Merciful, and from it spring forth the rivers of Paradise.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2637; Muslim, 2831. (The degrees and levels of Paradise and Hell, Web Resource)

The Quran states that Allah, ‘The Most Gracious is firmly established over the throne.’ (Quran, Sura 20, Ayat 5), and Islamic scholarly edict makes plain the separation between Allah and his creation with Imam `Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulusi renowned statement ‘Whoever believes that Allah permeates the Heavens and the Earth, or that He is a body sitting on His Throne, is a disbeliever, even if he thinks he is a Muslim.’ (Kabbani, 1996, p.86)."

To what extent is the medieval Western preconception about Muhammad still existent?

Here can be seen that for Muslims there is more than one heaven, in fact it may be that the 1st heaven is in fact what we now call space. Allah is not within his creation, he is absolute and infinite without partner and beyond contriction by dimesion. He supports the heavens, in fact rather than his throne (Al Arsh) supporting him as with say a mundane King, he even sustains and supports his throne. He is dependent on naught, but all is despendent on him. I recently added a piece of artwork to my mysticism thread which builds on the above passages, so I may as well place it here as an attempt to summarise the Islamic concept of cosmology in an accesible format...

[Unes]

Originally Posted by Harvster

The garden of Eden was probally lost in the flood and was not the home of God, as God created it for Adam, not himself.
. . . When Christ descended he freed these people and took them upto heaven meaning that Paradise is now empty.

By these two statements I conclude that "garden of Eden" is a different place than "Paradise". Harvster, I suggest you go back to your Bible study school!

Nehustan,
The subject was Paradise and Heaven and you plugged in Koran's illusions of the Heaven and Paradise, without clarifying which is which! As usual, you hard core believers have lost the basic concept in any communication; which is to digest what the question was! And of course you lack the basic skill of rational reasoning. And you wish to enlighten the world!? Oh please, give me a break!

Just in the following couple line I could see few major contradictions. If I had hallucinated I could have portrayed much more plausible and facinating picture!
“The highest of the degrees of Paradise is al-Firdaws,”
“… When you ask of Allaah, ask Him for al-Firdaws, for it is in the middle of Paradise and is the highest part of Paradise, and above it is the Throne of the Most Merciful, and from it spring forth the rivers of Paradise.”

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Nehustan]

Well you asked, and you placed it in the Abrahamic section of the Forum, so don't be suprised when you get what you ask for. Firdaus is beyond the first heaven (i.e. space) I think that it corresponds in Islamic cosmology to the 7th heaven, As it is beyond what we know as creation and considered part of the unseen, i.e veiled, I think that as far as our comprehension and/or perceptions go, and thus how it is described to us to say that its descriptions are allegorical and/or metaphorical would seem fair. It is actually from the word Firduas, via the Persian language that the word 'Paradise' derives. Not that I expect you to have any interest in etymology, but there it is.

Paradise, n., a1425 (c1400) Mandeville's Trav. (Titus) 84 Sarazines..seyn..paradys..is a place of delytes, where men schull fynde all maner of frutes. 1615 G. SANDYS Relation of Journey 58 It is..more then conjectured, that Mahomet grounded his devised Paradise, upon the Poets invention of Elisium. (OED)

Paradise

c.1175, "Garden of Eden," from O.Fr. paradis, from L.L. paradisus, from Gk. paradeisos "park, paradise, Garden of Eden," from an Iranian source, cf. Avestan pairidaeza "enclosure, park" (Mod.Pers. and Arabic firdaus "garden, paradise"), compound of pairi- "around" + diz "to make, form (a wall)." The first element is cognate with Gk. peri- "around, about" (see peri-), the second with Skt. digen "firm, solid," originally "kneaded into a compact mass," Gk. teikhos "wall," L. fingere "form, fashion" (cf. fiction), Goth. deigan "to smear," O.E. dag "dough." The Gk. word, originally used for an orchard or hunting park in Persia, was used in Septuagint to mean "Garden of Eden," and in New Testament translations of Luke xxiii.43 to mean "heaven" (a sense attested in Eng. from c.1205). Meaning "place like or compared to Paradise" is from c.1300.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=paradise&searchmode=none

So just a few words, next time you specifically don't want an answer my general suggestion is this...don't ask a question. If you do not want an Islamic answer, then maybe don't ask in a section which by implication deals with the three recognised Abrahamic faiths, and I guess finally don't be suprised if reference to 'Firdaus' crops up if you use the English word 'Paradise' given the linguistic root of the word.

But beyond that...carry on....oh and by the way....the site is called RF.