Is Paradise and Heaven the same place? (Jesus Christ, Earth, Eden)

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by Unes

Nehustan, you repeated my analogy of learning reading and writing, but you ignored my conclusion:

"But all these phases of literature are consistent with each other. That is; what we learn at first grade is valid all through the college education."

Actually I didn't, and the only constant in the literature is the language i.e. alphabet, aquired vocabluary, syntax, grammar, etc.. The content (that's what I meant when I said 'matter') is certainly not consistent. For instance my discipline is so inconsistent as to be hilarious, there is no agreement even on some of the smallest and one might say most reproduceable phenomena and/or data.

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by Unes

Nehustan, so you do repudiate the CURRENT VERSION of Holy Torah, and Holy Bible.

Nehustan, I congratulate you for your sharp mind. Then, I have a news for you; Prophet Mohammed should have done the same! Because the Holy Bible has not changed much since it was approved by Council of Nicea in 325 AD. So God who was sending messages to Prophet Mohammed between 610 - 632 AD should have repudiated Holy Torah and Holy Bible as well, and he should have declared them as heresy, rather than embracing them as earlier messages from Mighty Allah!

I think on the grounds of doctrine and creed we must draw clear distinction between the books we like to call the OT, and the books we call the NT. I think the multiple threads that have occured between the Christian and Jewish members of the site can attest to the fact that the Judaic and Christian traditions are heterogenous to strike a euphemism, and in direct contradiction to speak more plainly. To claim that the NT and 'Christian' anthropomorphism are in line with Judaic tradition and that they are homogenous is to say the least questionable, but nice try. This difference was apparent during the time of Jesus' ministry as is plainly accounted in the gospels of his companions. Jesus' own gospel, well I suppose that was the life he lived, as he was the living word, sad it has been lost in translation. I'm not suprised that The Nicean council approved the books they did, nor on the subsequent creed, one might even add it was part of Muhammad's raison d'etre. I am sure Gabriel and Muhammad enjoyed long diatribes on such matters, however it is moot.

Originally Posted by Unes

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Harvster

I beleive that Paradise is empty today because all have an opportunity to hear The Gospel in some manner in their lifetime, that being through man or God as it says that his will is that none should perish and God does not lie.

Think about this, Harvster. Did someone who lived in 4th century Mongolia have the opportunity to hear the Gospel during his lifetime? What about someone in some remote African tribal village in the 9th century? What about people who lived (and still live) in countries where Christianity is strictly forbidden by law? These people didn't have that chance and they couldn't possibly be expected to accept Jesus Christ if they never heard of Him. There is nowhere in the Bible where it is even suggested that Paradise ceased to exist after Christ's visit. I believe you're right that God doesn't want to lose any of His children, but it strikes me as simply ignoring the truth to say that everybody who has ever lived since Christ has had an opportunity to hear His Gospel and accept Him as their Savior. I believe that God will give everybody that chance and that millions will hear it taught in Paradise. After all, why didn't Jesus just send the thief on the cross directly to Heaven?

[Unes]

Originally Posted by FFH

His revelations must be in line with Christ's gospel, and his revelations must be recorded as scripture, and not sold for personal gain.

As far as general public, Jim Baker was preaching Jesus Gospel and he had vast Christian followers who were agreeing with him whole heartily. But it sounds your criteria of Prophet is more inline with Jim Jones, David Korush, Applewhite and Nettles (Heaven’s Gate) and so on. That is nice to know!

Originally Posted by Nehustan

Unes...I think you need to open a thread either in the Islam section or the comparative religion section...it'll help you get things off your chest...because frankly you are going far further than me off topic.

Nehustan, I am so surprise, why can't you get this, an open ended religious discussion will lead to nowhere! Here, at least the subject is limited to just a segment of the religious belief. So if I prove that the established religions fail on this narrow point then I have made my point. And I think in my last post I accomplished just that.

Nehustan, in my last post I congratulated you for your sharp mind. That was not a sarcastic remark, I really meant it; since you already had shown the mental capacity to figure out the flaws of the Christianity and had freed yourself from those contradictions. Now you are following Islam. I was pointing out that you also need to examine Islam more closely for what it is.


May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Harvster]

Unes, I'm only going to say this once more as you obviously refuse to read my posts properly. What i am saying is that The Garden was a completely seperate and different place than the Paradise Christ was talking about. You are implying that because the bible uses the same word (in some translations) that they are the same place, they are not. Remember God placed angels and a firery sword to keep mankind out forever if this was so then how could it be possible for them to re-enter. Secondly the Paradise for those that died before Christs ressurection was also called Abrahams Bossom(sp) and was a seperete place in Sheol as descriped in the Gospels.

Thirdly i am in no way playing on words you stated that God lived in the Garden. I was showing that this is not so and that God created it for Adam by stating that Adam was created before God created the gaden.

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Unes

But it sounds your criteria of Prophet is more inline with Jim Jones, David Korush, Applewhite and Nettles (Heaven’s Gate) and so on

Originally Posted by FFH

His revelations must be in line with Christ's gospel, and his revelations must be recorded as scripture, and not sold for personal gain.

Jesus Christ obviously never preached suicide as an alternate way to heaven. Don't twist my words.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Unes

As far as general public, Jim Baker was preaching Jesus Gospel and he had vast Christian followers who were agreeing with him whole heartily. But it sounds your criteria of Prophet is more inline with Jim Jones, David Korush, Applewhite and Nettles (Heaven’s Gate) and so on. That is nice to know!

What in the world would make you say something like that, Unes?

[Unes]

Originally Posted by FFH

Jesus Christ obviously never preached suicide as an alternate way to heaven. Don't twist my words.

FFH, so suicide is not acceptable too, but I don't recall that David Korush committed suicide, his act was similar to Jesus Christ; he was fearless about his death. So may I consider David Korush as a Prophet according to your criteria?

Originally Posted by Harvster

The Garden was a completely seperate and different place than the Paradise Christ was talking about. You are implying that because the bible uses the same word (in some translations) that they are the same place, they are not.

Harvster, you are absolutely right about that, I am indicating Paradise and Garden of Eden as ONE place. And that information comes from Genesis story. I am unaware of other Paradise that you are implying. So would you please provide me with the information about the SECOND Paradise that you are talking about. You know, confusion is the mother of all misunderstandings.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

What in the world would make you say something like that, Unes?

Katzpur, FFH mentioned about Joseph Smith the Prophet, I am very uneasy about the title of Prophet which some preachers acquire, so I want to get it right, what makes a preacher to become a Prophet. Because as a Prophet they would get a trump card that they could suppress any discussion. These are the terms which could not be taken so lightly.

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Unes

so suicide is not acceptable too, but I don't recall that David Korush committed suicide, his act was similar to Jesus Christ; he was fearless about his death. So may I consider David Korush as a Prophet according to your criteria?

A prophet's revelations must adhere to the teachings of Christ.

Los Angeles Times
Sunday, September 26, 1999

"It is widely known that Koresh had wives as young as 14 and had sex with others even younger".

Source: L.A. Times