Is Paradise and Heaven the same place? (Jesus Christ, Earth, Eden)

[FFH]

The Garden of Eden was an actual place located in Daviess County, Missouri, according to revelation given to Joseph Smith, and recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.



DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
SECTION 116

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, near Wight’s Ferry, at a place called Spring Hill, Daviess County, Missouri, May 19, 1838.

1- Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.


There is an actual place called Adam-Ondi-Ahman, Missouri that is gated, but it is open to the public from 8:OO a.m. until dusk. It is located 10 miles west of the Amish town of Jamesport, Missouri.


ADAM-ONDI-AHMAN
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Adam - Adam
Ondi - close
Ahman - God

[Harvster]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

That's an interesting point of view. I don't believe Paradise is empty now, but that it still exists. First of all, before Christ visited Paradise, the individuals who were there were the good men and women who, because they had lived before Him, had never heard His Gospel and had not had the opportunity to accept Him as their Savior. Even though He has since lived, died, been resurrected and returned to Heaven, there have been billions of good people in the world who spent their entire lives knowing nothing of Him. Just like the people you mentioned, these individuals have the right to hear His Gospel and to choose to either accept or reject it before the Last Judgment. I believe that, even though He is not currently in Paradise (but in Heaven), His Gospel is being shared there today by people who were fortunate enough to have lived their lives knowing how He was sent to redeem us of our sins.

Katz I believe the Israelites and those who lived according to Gods word and belived in ONLY God (ie Job etc) were the only ones that were in Paradise when Christ descended. I say this because these people were saved under the law. In other words they had to obey the law, God and preform sacrifices etc to be saved. We on the other hand are saved by Grace. This is why Christ states that he has come to forfill the Law (sacrifices as Christ became the ultimate sacrifice), so we can be saved by the Grace of God. It is also importent to remember that the Gentiles (the rest of the world) did not hear the gospel until after the resurrection (Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles).

In regards to Christ descending, yes he descended to Preach His gospel to them so that they can be saved by the Grace of God (1 Pet 3:18-20)notice the annalogy of Noah where it says few. I beleive that Paradise is empty today because all have an opportunity to hear The Gospel in some manner in their lifetime, that being through man or God as it says that his will is that none should perish and God does not lie.

I'm kind of surprised. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone outside of my religion say that.

Really, well logically it is the only thing that fits as Christ (who never lies) said today and the only place that Christ went that day was Paradise (not Heaven)

[Harvster]

Originally Posted by Unes

Katzpur, I was clear about the term Paradise. As I mentioned before David Rohl researched; from the clues that he got from the Genesis story he put Paradise on present Tabriz-Iran. According to Genesis that Garden physically was on this earth. Also Genesis tells about the creation of Adam and Eve in that Paradise, and it seems God also was living in that Paradise. So if that Garden has been destroyed, then that puts big question on some of your theology that Paradise is the place where the righteous go after death, and . . .

Unes prehaps you should study the bible a bit more. Firstly God never created man in the garden. Secondly nowhere does it say that God lived in the Garden it says he walked in the Garden.

[Zsr1973]

Originally Posted by FFH

The Garden of Eden was an actual place located in Daviess County, Missouri, according to revelation given to Joseph Smith, and recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.



DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
SECTION 116

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, near Wight’s Ferry, at a place called Spring Hill, Daviess County, Missouri, May 19, 1838.

1- Spring Hill is named by the Lord Adam-ondi-Ahman, because, said he, it is the place where Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet.


There is an actual place called Adam-Ondi-Ahman, Missouri that is gated, but it is open to the public from 8:OO a.m. until dusk. It is located 10 miles west of the Amish town of Jamesport, Missouri.


ADAM-ONDI-AHMAN
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Adam - Adam
Ondi - close
Ahman - God

Tell me, how did Black people become brown-skinned, have wooly hair and thick lips. I would like to know what your teachings say.

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by Unes

Let me spell out for you again; Holy Koran accepts the Holy Torah and Holy Bible as messages from God, but it rejects the content of those books! Can you realize how deceptive that is?

So could you please tell me when Holy Koran says Holy Torah and Holy Bible are messages from God, what does that mean?

I can but you should note that this thread, was to do with paradise, and heaven (i.e. what I was adressing with my original posts). You are now going completely off topic and asking what Muslims accept in the books of the Bible, which....is off topic...more suitable to a thread in the comparative religion section than here.

However I think in answer I will paraphrase the Quran. Muhammad was asked at the time of his revelation why the whole Quran was not revealed at one time, why all the guidance was not given to him all at once. Gabriel conveys to Muhammad a sura within which it says

Now they who are bent on denying the truth are wont to ask. “Why has not the Qur’an been bestowed on him from on high in one single revelation?” [it has been revealed] in this manner so that We might strengthen thy heart thereby, for We have so arranged its component parts that they form one consistent whole. (25:32)

I suppose one might consider these ayat also...

And now that We replace one message by another, since God is fully aware of what He bestows from on high, step by step - they [who deny the truth] are wont to say, "Thou but inventest it!" Nay, but most of them do not understand it! Say: "Holy inspiration has brought it down from thy Sustainer by stages, setting forth the truth, so that it might give firmness unto those who have attained to faith, and provide guidance and a glad tiding unto all who have surrendered themselves to God." (16:101-102)

and also

And as a guide towards the truth have We bestowed this [revelation] from on high; with this [very] truth has it come down [unto thee, O Prophet]: for We have sent thee but as a herald of glad tidings and a warner, [bearing] a discourse which We have gradually unfolded, so that thou might read it out to mankind by stages, seeing that We have bestowed it from on high step by step, as [one] revelation.(17:105-106)

now this post is COMPLETELY off topic, but I suppose when you go off topic (or request information of this type), that's ok. Whereas when anyone with a differing view goes off topic (or doesn't, just puts forth a differrent perspective) that is immediately met with an accusation of irrelevance.

If you wish to start a thread showing the inconsistencies between The Quran and previous revelations, I will be happy to chat to you further about this in there. This thread was meant to be related to ideas about the 'place' (astagfir Allah) of God, Heaven(s), and Paradise.

[Unes]

Originally Posted by FFH

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, near Wight’s Ferry, at a place called Spring Hill, Daviess County, Missouri, May 19, 1838

FFH, what is your criteria of accepting somebody's claim as a Prophet?

FFH, should I consider Jim Baker and Tammy Faye as Prophet too?
You know they built a huge recreation park for Christian vacationers.
Similar to Jesus, Jim Baker was arrested and he is in Jail.

Originally Posted by Harvster

Unes prehaps you should study the bible a bit more. Firstly God never created man in the garden.

Harvster,
"God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Genesis 2:8

Harvster, it sounds you would like to play with words. That is hardly a scholarly thing to do. But the subject of this discusion is the Paradise, so any technical discussion about where actually Adam was created is not really our concern! But Adam and Eve main story happened in Paradise.

Harvster, according to your account; Paradise was destroyed in the Flood, then I must conclude that Jesus on the Cross must be hallucinating of Paradise!

Originally Posted by Nehustan

You are now going completely off topic and asking what Muslims accept in the books of the Bible, which....is off topic...more suitable to a thread in the comparative religion section than here.
Also
now this post is COMPLETELY off topic, but I suppose when you go off topic (or request information of this type), that's ok.

Nehustan, I was pointing how Holy Koran is twisting the content of Genesis Story which is in Torah and Bible. As you know Adam and Eve story mostly happened in Paradise which is the subject of this discussion. In Genesis story God is an Old Man who is communicating with Adam and Eve. I don't know why you are so confused about all these.

Regarding your new comments, I have no problem why Koran was delivered in stages. By this I think you are hinting that God's message had started with Adam, ... Abraham, ... Moses, ...Jesus and ended with Prophet Mohammed. I have no problem with that concept either. My question is why the content of those ideas has changed? This is like at school we start learning about reading and writing from the first grade. As our knowledge get expanded we learn more sophisticated literature. But all these phases of literature are consistent with each other. That is; what we learn at first grade is valid all through the college education.

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by Unes

Nehustan, I was pointing how Holy Koran is twisting the content of Genesis Story which is in Torah and Bible. As you know Adam and Eve story mostly happened in Paradise which is the subject of this discussion. In Genesis story God is an Old Man who is communicating with Adam and Eve. I don't know why you are so confused about all these.

No Confusion here. I think that the fact that you use the one word 'God', explains why you think he walked around within creation. But hey that's not your fault, if you think that Jahweh is a finite being, I may agree with you. However as is so often pointed out Jehovah is not Allah, and you will not hear me for one trying to tell you they are the same. Allah (ALLH/ELH) is obviously quite distinct from Jahweh (IHVH) and actually that picture which you criticised for being so simple (which ironically I think is its strength) delineates this difference clearly. You have (the first) heaven with the Macrocosm (aka Ancient of Days) IHVH manifest within, and thus by extension Keterim/Adam Kadmon (Microcosm) represented by the sephirotic tree, made in the image of IHVH if you like...

Originally Posted by Unes

Regarding your new comments

Yes the one's in response to you taking us off topic....you get what you ask for...(déja vu!!)

Originally Posted by Unes

I have no problem why Koran was delivered in stages. By this I think you are hinting that God's message had started with Adam, ... Abraham, ... Moses, ...Jesus and ended with Prophet Mohammed. I have no problem with that concept either. My question is why the content of those ideas has changed?

And now that We replace one message by another, since God is fully aware of what He bestows from on high, step by step - they [who deny the truth] are wont to say, "Thou but inventest it!" Nay, but most of them do not understand it! Say: "Holy inspiration has brought it down from thy Sustainer by stages, setting forth the truth, so that it might give firmness unto those who have attained to faith, and provide guidance and a glad tiding unto all who have surrendered themselves to God." (16:101-102)

It hasn't changed, tho' it (the gospel of Jesus) may have become slighty confused due to transmission, translation, level of understanding of the people who related...Jesus was a prophet, with divine inspiration, a living word, the living gospel. Personally I'm not sure I trust second hand accounts from fishermen, or people that weren't even companions and/or diciples during his ministry.

Originally Posted by Unes

This is like at school we start learning about reading and writing from the first grade. As our knowledge get expanded we learn more sophisticated literature. But all these phases of literature are consistent with each other. That is; what we learn at first grade is valid all through the college education.

Glad you bring up reading and/or comprehension, you saved me drawing attention to it. As to literacy you are absolutely right to use it as an analogy, so I will extend it. Lets say that kids start with the alphabet (say Roman), they then use it (language) to read...

thereupon with age proceeding to more complicated matter....

...now the language is, I suppose, the same in both of these books, the matter of a different order. I don't think the child will be able to read the second, while the geneticist will sit happily with his child reading 'Dick and Jane'. And so we come back to the issue of reading (!!!) and I suppose the third time I will post this ayat/sign...

And now that We replace one message by another, since God is fully aware of what He bestows from on high, step by step - they [who deny the truth] are wont to say, "Thou but inventest it!" Nay, but most of them do not understand it! Say: "Holy inspiration has brought it down from thy Sustainer by stages, setting forth the truth, so that it might give firmness unto those who have attained to faith, and provide guidance and a glad tiding unto all who have surrendered themselves to God." (16:101-102)

This is actually not to do with the Quran alone, but addresses the specific you proposed, why does knowledge (as opposed to the ability to read itself) change? I think it proposes an answer....

Nay, but most of them do not understand it!

Originally Posted by Unes

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Unes]

Nehustan, you repeated my analogy of learning reading and writing, but you ignored my conclusion:

"But all these phases of literature are consistent with each other. That is; what we learn at first grade is valid all through the college education."

So if God was intended to enlighten Man through stages, don't you think his message was supposed to be consistent? You don't tell to New high school students that what they have learnt about reading and writing in elementary school they need to forget about it and now the reading and writing will have totally a NEW STRUCTURE which would contradict those of the elementary school!

Originally Posted by Nehustan

However as is so often pointed out Jehovah is not Allah, and you will not hear me for one trying to tell you they are the same.

Also

Jesus was a prophet, with divine inspiration, a living word, the living gospel. Personally I'm not sure I trust second hand accounts from fishermen, or people that weren't even companions and/or diciples during his ministry.

Nehustan, so you do repudiate the CURRENT VERSION of Holy Torah, and Holy Bible.

Nehustan, I congratulate you for your sharp mind. Then, I have a news for you; Prophet Mohammed should have done the same! Because the Holy Bible has not changed much since it was approved by Council of Nicea in 325 AD. So God who was sending messages to Prophet Mohammed between 610 - 632 AD should have repudiated Holy Torah and Holy Bible as well, and he should have declared them as heresy, rather than embracing them as earlier messages from Mighty Allah!

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Unes

FFH, what is your criteria of accepting somebody's claim as a Prophet?

His revelations must be in line with Christ's gospel, and his revelations must be recorded as scripture, and not sold for personal gain.

[Nehustan]

Unes...I think you need to open a thread either in the Islam section or the comparative religion section...it'll help you get things off your chest...because frankly you are going far further than me off topic.

I think a thread all of its own will act as a mild form of therapy in regard to your Islam issues in lieu of the presence of an available psychotherapist.

Actually quite often at University level, they tell you to forget everything you learnt at school, and then when you get a job, they tell you to forget everything you learnt at University. I mean I'm no physics doctor, but I am almost certain that classical physics break down once somebody leaves that paradigm, and for instance begins to comtemplate contemporary (quantum) physics. Sure it's unlikely that anyone will progress to Quantum theory and/or mechanics without having pondered Newtonian laws/mechanics, I'm just not sure how much relevance it would have to their research.

I think the two images I put in my last post illustrated my point.