Is Paradise and Heaven the same place? (Jesus Christ, Earth, Eden)

[Nehustan]

I have gone back to your OP, and I will try and break down my answer in nice easy little sections for you, directly adressing your points. It will however draw on my faith for which I make no apologies.

Originally Posted by Unes

According to David Rohl's research from the clues that he got from the Genesis story, Paradise, Garden of Eden, was located at the present Tabriz-Iran.
From all the clues we have we sense Heaven should be somewhere among the stars.

The word for paradise comes into English (and in fact European languages) from the Arabic word Firdaus, which in Islamic theology/cosmology is the 'highest' part of 'paradise' relating to the 7th heaven just below the Throne (Al Arsh) of Allah (God). Eden is not necessarily the same place, in fact more probably than not it is definately not the same place as 'Firdaus', with it potentially existing as one of the worlds WITHIN creation, i.e. the first heaven. Contrariwise it may be be a place upon terra. However Adn/Eden is a place within creation, thus within our universe.

Originally Posted by Unes

Where does God, the Old Man, live?

From an Islamic perspective God (Allah) is without place, tho' the Quran does state that 'The Merciful is established over his throne' (i.e. Arsh). In Islam he has no form being beyond perception, not merely in this life but as a rule of thumb, and is not anthropomorphised as an 'Old Man'.

Originally Posted by Unes

Did God lose his Paradise??

Not sure what this question means. I'm sure it is exactly where he left it.

Originally Posted by Unes

Are we going to the Paradise or to Heaven or to the New Jerusalem?

The first two parts of your question I think I have covered re: Paradise & (the) heaven(s). As regarding New Jerusalem, I think from the christian scripture, it is to come to you, descending from (the) heaven(s), rather than you to it.

Originally Posted by Unes

With so many Christians in the history of the church, is the New Jerusalem large enough to hold all those Christians? The New Jerusalem dimensions look awfully small for these many Christians! The same way that Noah's Ark was too small for all those animals.

These issues are so puzzling for me.

Sorry can't help you here, used to be a Christian, puzzled me rather a lot too.

Originally Posted by Unes

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Unes]

Originally Posted by Nehustan

So just a few words, next time you specifically don't want an answer my general suggestion is this...don't ask a question. If you do not want an Islamic answer, then maybe don't ask in a section which by implication deals with the three recognised Abrahamic faiths, and I guess finally don't be suprised if reference to 'Firdaus' crops up if you use the English word 'Paradise' given the linguistic root of the word.

Nehustan, anybody who wants to comment they are welcome, but don't you think they should stick to the topic !? Without wondering to their own interests ! Of course if they understand the topic !

Originally Posted by Nehustan

From an Islamic perspective God (Allah) is without place, tho' the Quran does state that 'The Merciful is established over his throne' (i.e. Arsh). In Islam he has no form being beyond perception, not merely in this life but as a rule of thumb, and is not anthropomorphised as an 'Old Man'.

Nehustan, you can not have it both way; Holy Koran accepted the Holy Torah and the Holy Bible as messages from God, and in those books God is an Old Man living in Heaven. Now if the same God sent Holy Koran and repudiating his own earlier messages, then what can say to that !?

May God Bless us all,
Unes

[Aqualung]

No, they isn't the same place.

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Unes

New Jerusalem dimensions look awfully small for these many Christians!

Revelation 21: 16

And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Furlong = 1/8 mile

12,000 x .125 = 1,500 miles

1500 x 1500 = 2,250,000

New Jerusalem = 2,250,000 square miles
United States = 3,718,711 square miles
North America = 9,450,000 square miles

Revelation 21: 17

And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Cubit - An ancient unit of linear measure, originally equal to the length of the forearm from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow, or about 17 to 22 inches.

144 cubits x 19.5 in = 234 ft

New Jerusalem wall = 234 feet

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by Unes

Nehustan, anybody who wants to comment they are welcome, but don't you think they should stick to the topic !? Without wondering to their own interests ! Of course if they understand the topic !


Nehustan, you can not have it both way; Holy Koran accepted the Holy Torah and the Holy Bible as messages from God, and in those books God is an Old Man living in Heaven. Now if the same God sent Holy Koran and repudiating his own earlier messages, then what can say to that !?

May God Bless us all,
Unes

Well what can I say to that, you want to worship an Old man, hey no problem here, but that certainly isn't my God, nor was it in all the years I was a Christian. In fact I think the only time I can honestly think of God being represented as an old man in heaven is in the sistine chapel, and that was meant to be irony. Jesus is quite often represented as a man (because he was), but now God is also a man, albeit an old one.

I think the problem here is that you meant to place this thread in the CHRISTIAN section (by the way Paul wasn't related to Abraham!!!). You now criticise me for directly answering your question, maybe you should read back through it, it directly addresses your question, tho' I understand you may not actually understand it...but hey thats no real suprise as you yourself admit your own religion confuses you.

You cannot decide what you want to deem relevant to a thread, or what you deem ideologically suitable...well actually you can....open it in the Christian section and make it obvious you are only wanting Christian perspectives. I know that this is probably what you intended to do, so I'll be gentle-ish. Your question asked about Paradise, Heaven(s), Eden, God and people's thoughts on those topics. My answer addressed those issues, I'm having problem following your issue with my post here? That I'm not a christian anymore...that's right. That I have a different belief to you...guess what...you just scored two out of two. Are you suggesting that I am now precluded from answering posts because you can't get your head around my belief system? I'm not sure how you propose I answer a question from anywhere other than from my own base of knowledge or...how did you put it....

"Nehustan, anybody who wants to comment they are welcome, but don't you think they should stick to the topic !? Without wondering to their own interests ! Of course if they understand the topic !"

Like I said I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you wanted this thread in the Christian section.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Harvster

Paradise according to Christ and the OT was next to Hell separated by a Gulf. The saints of the old testament and all those up until Christ rose again where in Paradise. When Christ descended he freed these people and took them upto heaven meaning that Paradise is now empty.

That's an interesting point of view. I don't believe Paradise is empty now, but that it still exists. First of all, before Christ visited Paradise, the individuals who were there were the good men and women who, because they had lived before Him, had never heard His Gospel and had not had the opportunity to accept Him as their Savior. Even though He has since lived, died, been resurrected and returned to Heaven, there have been billions of good people in the world who spent their entire lives knowing nothing of Him. Just like the people you mentioned, these individuals have the right to hear His Gospel and to choose to either accept or reject it before the Last Judgment. I believe that, even though He is not currently in Paradise (but in Heaven), His Gospel is being shared there today by people who were fortunate enough to have lived their lives knowing how He was sent to redeem us of our sins.

When Christ states to the theif that he will be in Paradise he is speaking of this area. This is why Christ says on this day, because Christ met him there to free him and take him into heaven, therefore as Katz said there is no contradiction when Christ says he has not acsended yet.

I'm kind of surprised. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone outside of my religion say that.

The garden of Eden was probally lost in the flood and was not the home of God, as God created it for Adam, not himself.

Yes, I've never heard it taught by anyone that God created Eden has His home.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Unes

By these two statements I conclude that "garden of Eden" is a different place than "Paradise". Harvster, I suggest you go back to your Bible study school!

Perhaps the term "Paradise" is used to represent two different places. The Garden of Eden was undoubtedly a paradise of sorts and some translations of the Bible may refer to it as "Paradise." The King James Version, however, does not. The KJV refers to Paradise as the place where the righteous go after death.

[Unes]

Originally Posted by Nehustan

Well what can I say to that, you want to worship an Old man, hey no problem here, but that certainly isn't my God, nor was it in all the years I was a Christian. In fact I think the only time I can honestly think of God being represented as an old man in heaven is in the sistine chapel, and that was meant to be irony. Jesus is quite often represented as a man (because he was), but now God is also a man, albeit an old one.

Nehustan, do you really think that your response was addressing the issue?
Let me spell out for you again; Holy Koran accepts the Holy Torah and Holy Bible as messages from God, but it rejects the content of those books! Can you realize how deceptive that is?

So could you please tell me when Holy Koran says Holy Torah and Holy Bible are messages from God, what does that mean?

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Perhaps the term "Paradise" is used to represent two different places. The Garden of Eden was undoubtedly a paradise of sorts and some translations of the Bible may refer to it as "Paradise." The King James Version, however, does not. The KJV refers to Paradise as the place where the righteous go after death.

Katzpur, I was clear about the term Paradise. As I mentioned before David Rohl researched; from the clues that he got from the Genesis story he put Paradise on present Tabriz-Iran. According to Genesis that Garden physically was on this earth. Also Genesis tells about the creation of Adam and Eve in that Paradise, and it seems God also was living in that Paradise. So if that Garden has been destroyed, then that puts big question on some of your theology that Paradise is the place where the righteous go after death, and . . .

May God Bless us all,
Unes