Satan (sin, blessing, Adam and Eve)

[armageddon]

Originally Posted by EnhancedSpirit

Satan is evil and God was the one who created him.

Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati.I asked what Hebrew name was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

I had been taught that Satan was a beautiful, holy angel which stood before God, and he was supposedly the most beautiful angel that ever was. I was taught that all went well in heaven until one day he began to believe that he was more beautiful and/or better that God. He became exalted! Then we are told that God went into battle with him and threw old Satan right out of heaven. By their teaching they seemed to imply that God was having problems ruling his kingdom because of pride and rebellion. I just can't believe that God has ever had a hard time ruling heaven. Isaiah 45:7 reads, "I form the light, and I create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." And Isaiah 54:16," Behold I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; I have created the waster to destroy." Satan is evil and God was the one who created him.

i question that. if god had written fate and all that in the stars before the universe had been created, they why make a satan in the first place?

Originally Posted by enhancedspirit

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked."(Jer. 17:9) Mankind does not need help from any other source to be evil. Most people keep their evil actions well in check, but some thrive on evil. Such are the terrorists who can take thousands of innocent lives without remorse. These evil men were not forced by any supernatural power to do what they did. They did what they did because they wanted to do it. And they are god's children. They were born perfect and innocent, and became evil of their own free will. Evil is not a part of the original creation but a result of the abuse of the gift of free will. There are evil men in the world and there will always be evil men in the world. And they are used by God to serve his purpose.

but was evil not created because of satan? if you follow the bible, there was no sin before eve was tempted by satan to eat an apple from the tree, and then she brought adam down along with her. so technically, couldnt you say that mankind had gotten help on attaining evil.

[EnhancedSpirit]

Originally Posted by armageddon

i question that. if god had written fate and all that in the stars before the universe had been created, they why make a satan in the first place?

Then question the bible. Isaiah 45:7 reads, "I form the light, and I create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." And Isaiah 54:16," Behold I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; I have created the waster to destroy."

Originally Posted by armageddon

if you follow the bible, there was no sin before eve was tempted by satan to eat an apple from the tree, and then she brought adam down along with her. so technically, couldnt you say that mankind had gotten help on attaining evil.

If Eve was tempted by Satan, and God made everything in the Garden of Eden, where did Satan come from? The only reason 'sin' appeared after eating the apple is because Adam and Eve were made aware of it by gaining the knowledge of good and evil. God knew they would be tempted, he put the temptation there. Why didn't God just leave that tree out of the Garden?

[Melody]

Originally Posted by jewscout

actually this is talking about the King of Tyre, a province on the coast of the Med.

the only thing refering to The satan in the Tanach (OT for all you christians out there) is Job, refered to as the Adversary, however he is there as one of the ministering angels in service to HaShem

While it does start by saying it is to the King of Tyre, there are some bible scholars who believe that some of these passages are referring to Satan. Here's one believed to refer to Satan because the King of Tyre was not in Eden.

You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God.
Ezekiel 28:11-13

Also believed to refer to Satan because of the "guardian cherub" and he had access to God's holy mount. Something the King of Tyre would not be or have had:

You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the firey stones
Ezekiel 28:14


So I threw you to the earth;
Ezekiel 28:17

[Melody]

[quote=EnhancedSpirit]Then question the bible. Isaiah 45:7 reads, "I form the light, and I create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." And [/qUOTE]

NIV bible:
I make peace and create evil.

KJV
I bring prosperity and create disaster

Jewish bible (translated by David Stern)
I make well-being, I create woe.

To me there's a big difference between evil and disaster or woe. Where's No*s when I need him!? Anyone who can shed light on the literal translation of the Hebrew words?

[EnhancedSpirit]

Yes, where is No*s, where was he movin' to Timbuktu?

[jewscout]

[quote=Melody]

Originally Posted by EnhancedSpirit

To me there's a big difference between evil and disaster or woe. Where's No*s when I need him!? Anyone who can shed light on the literal translation of the Hebrew words?

i'll see what i can find!

[jewscout]

Originally Posted by armageddon

i question that. if god had written fate and all that in the stars before the universe had been created, they why make a satan in the first place?

what's that old saying? "It's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it"

Originally Posted by armageddon

but was evil not created because of satan? if you follow the bible, there was no sin before eve was tempted by satan to eat an apple from the tree, and then she brought adam down along with her. so technically, couldnt you say that mankind had gotten help on attaining evil.

HaShem creates everything and He gave us our Yetzer Hara "The evil inclination" but more accurately it is more like our selfish inclination...The satan, or Samael, has a job, to tempt us to give in to this inclination, but not to destroy us, so that we may chose to NOT give in and there by becoming better people...but of course the apple and adam and eve story can be looked at in a thousand different ways and interpretations so take from it what you will

[linwood]

Originally Posted by EnhancedSpirit

If Eve was tempted by Satan, and God made everything in the Garden of Eden, where did Satan come from? The only reason 'sin' appeared after eating the apple is because Adam and Eve were made aware of it by gaining the knowledge of good and evil. God knew they would be tempted, he put the temptation there. Why didn't God just leave that tree out of the Garden?

Satan was not in the Garden, he was not the serpent.

[Silvanus]

yeah, some gnostic apocrypha have Jesus being the serpent in the garden, therebye giving knowledge of good and evil, and knowledge of the Demiurge unto adam and eve.

but this goes away from the mainstream judeo-christian system. If ur interested in alternative views I can give some more examples, since it's all really fascinating stuff. Armeggedon, You were right in saying there was common belief that Satan is co-eternal and the opposite of God. The christian dualists usually equated Satan with Jehovah, and Christ's Father as the new Good God. The lore of Satan took many different forms, here's some more obscure Satanic lore from the past, that some many not be as familiar with:

The Bogomils portrayed Satan as a rebelious angel to the Good God, and then went on to create the imperfect material world with his own band of angels, imprisoning some good angels in material bodies to create mankind (adam and eve). Christ was then equated with the Archangel Michael, Satan's eternal rival, and tries to free the angels back to heaven. Lucifer/Satan was the first born, and most beloved angel of God, and before his fall he was the most powerful Archangel of heaven, leading them all.

The early Marcionites were radical dualists who believed in the Good God and portrayed Satan as a destructive angel in the courts of the cruel God Jehovah, and as the jewish messiah to come, while the later ones often believed in 3 distinct principles: Abba who was the Good God revealed by Christ; Jehovah who was the imperfect Creator God of the jews; And Satan who was the purely Evil God of the heathens. Christ was always seen as an angel from the Good God instead of an incarnation, sent to reveal the new, previously unrevealed kingdom of Love to a suffering mankind.

The Paulicians did not believe in the validity of OT stories alltogether and, allthough influenced by the Marcionites, developed an anti-ecclesiastical congregation of the faithful, in the spirit of St. Paul's churches. Satan was equated with Jehovah himself, as the co-eternal evil God of the cosmos. In a separate cosmos was the Good God who sent his angel, Jesus to reveal a more compassionate Father and spirituality.

So yeah there's all kinds of stories developed around the Satan/Adversary figure. Christianity today still feels that Satan is a rebelious angel, caste away from heaven and now is the Prince and god of this world or age. The Christian religion has always been dualistic, just in various grades. Only Gnosticism sought to diminish dualistic beliefs into monism.

[linwood]

There is no reason to believe The Serpent is Jesus either..
It`s just a snake, if you want to make deeper alegory then it was really Eves conscience all the time.
The conscience she didn`t have yet.