Why something rather then nothing

[Quiddity]

This is an article that all Abrahamic religions can appreciate and find common ground in. A worthy read IMO.
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The fundamental question of why there is something rather than nothing is a metaphysical and theological question—and with respect to such a question the natural sciences necessarily have nothing to say.

Is the ancient adage—that from nothing, nothing comes—true? Must there always have been something, existing in some way, in order for there now to exist anything at all? Ancient Greek scientists and philosophers, from the pre-Socratics to Plato, Aristotle, and on to the Stoics, would all affirm that something cannot come from nothing—at least if we properly understand what we mean by “something,” “come from,” and “nothing.” Embracing this principle, the ancients all agreed that the universe must be eternal; there could be no absolute beginning, “before” which there was nothing. In seeming contrast to the universal principle that from nothing, nothing comes, Jews, Christians, and Muslims were and are pressed with the need to make sense of their belief that God is the source of all that is; God does not work with some pre-existing stuff to create the universe, since if there were such material it would not be created by God, and, hence, God would not be the cause of all that is. Thus, making sense of “creation out-of-nothing” became an important task for thinkers in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. That task included profound reflections on what it means for God to create and how “to create” is fundamentally different from “producing a change in and among things.”

Further reading:
Landscapes of Nothingness « Public Discourse

[Me Myself]

Actually, somewhere i RF(I think in the jewish DIR? ) I read that the word used in Genesis for "creation" can also be used as a way to say "form" as in out of some materials that pre-existed.

The way I see it, "create" has always been (at least for humans and for when the word was invented) to make something "new" out of another something by reshaping, collecting ingredients, reorganizing, etc.

This "out of nothing" thing has no basis and would have no basis even if the word in the bible literaly meant "created"

[Quiddity]

I'd be interested to see what exactly was said in the Jewish DIR you speak of.

You may be getting too caught up on the word "creation". Nonetheless, it doesn't matter, as God creating things out of nothing is a philosophical inquiry and haven't the foggiest idea where your "no basis" is coming from?

Keep in mind this is still in the DIR so let's not make this into a debate.

[Me Myself]

Indeed, not a debate section.

I merely was saying that in the bible I´ve never seen anything specifically saying "something" out of "nothing".

I was talking about your last point of creating beinf different from "producing a change".

Giving my thought in the whole matter, etc.

[Quiddity]

Originally Posted by Me Myself

Indeed, not a debate section.

I merely was saying that in the bible I´ve never seen anything specifically saying "something" out of "nothing".

I was talking about your last point of creating beinf different from "producing a change".

Giving my thought in the whole matter, etc.

Well, hate to break it to you but when it comes to high end philosophical inquiries, don't look to the Bible. All it's going to do is reinforce whatever presuppositions and views you may already have and get you no where.

BTW, I said no such thing. ....That came from the article.

I really hope you give it more thought then a quick glance.

[arthra]

Quiddity wrote:

"...all Abrahamic religions can appreciate and find common ground .."

I'm for that

We Baha'is believe there's always been a "Common Source"!

In the Baha'i Writings on this issue of creation we believe God has always been creating..so it did not start and finish..It's ongoing and been going on.

Here are some extracts from the Baha'i writings that may be relevant here...

"This universe is not created through the fortuitous concurrences of atoms; it is created by a great law which decrees that the tree bring forth certain definite fruit. Verily, this universe contains many worlds of which we know nothing."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 138

"Then it is clear that original matter, which is in the embryonic state, and the mingled and composed elements which were its earliest forms, gradually grew and developed during many ages and cycles, passing from one shape and form to another, until they appeared in this perfection, this system, this organization and this establishment, through the supreme wisdom of God."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 182


"The Creator always had a creation; the rays have always shone and gleamed from the reality of the sun, for without the rays the sun would be opaque darkness. The names and attributes of God require the existence of beings, and the Eternal Bounty does not cease. If it were to, it would be contrary to the perfections of God."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 281)

"But universal matter and the elements do not become absolutely annihilated and destroyed."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 203

"The Truth was, and creation has been under His shadow since the beginning which has no beginning; but this was preceded by the priority which has no priority, and by the Cause that could not be known by the learned knowers."

~ Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 191

Baha'u'llah revealed:

"Wert thou to assert that it (universe) hath ever existed and shall continue to exist, it would be true"

(Lawh-i Hikmat, Eng. tr., p. 140).

But he says that the world is nevertheless originated by the creative power of God. That is, the world is created, but it has always been being created and so has never been non-existent. Creation is not a unique divine act that occurs once, at a particular point of time, establishing a historical dividing-line between nonbeing and being. It is rather a continuous divine activity." (from an article by Juan Cole)

Tablet of Wisdom (Lawh-i-hikmat)

[maxfreakout]

if time is circular, then this problem does not arise, time never started. Something never had to come from nothing if time is circular, because something always exists

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by Quiddity

I'd be interested to see what exactly was said in the Jewish DIR you speak of.
....

It may have been my post here:

Understanding Creation

The only creation Ex nihilo in Judaism would be light, or energy.

[punkdbass]

Very interesting read, thank you for sharing

I find cosmology, or the origins of the universe, to be a very interesting subject. I think scientists need to start using a different word than "nothing" though(when they call it creation from nothing), because clearly the general scientific stance is that the universe came from something, or basically something has always eternally existed.

In other words when scientists say the universe originally came from "nothing", they do not mean "nothing" as the absolute lack of anything(or how we normally view the word in the english language) but rather they are trying to redefine the word nothing to have some sort of physical nature.

To be as general as possible, when it comes to the origins of the universe I feel like you have 2 options:
1. Believe there was a first cause(usually thought of as God)
2. Believe the universe came from something that has eternally existed(some sort of energy/material)

I think both the idea of a first cause and the idea of something physical existed eternally and thus having an infinite past both seem illogical.. but my gut feeling is that something has eternally existed, so I think the second option is the more plausible one. Believing the universe is essentially eternal, however, does nothing to effect my belief in God

[malcom x]

thank you for posting this topic