[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

We can discuss the sovereignty of God as our next topic if that's what you desire. As with the last topic, the Bible is the source of reference to understand God on this thread. Does the God revealed in the Scriptures alone line-up with official Mormon Theology in regards to His complete or partial sovereignty.

I have no particular desire save for some degree of rigor informing discussion. Thus far you have not been accommodating. To illustrate: there are ten points* I have noted, all of which trace to yourself as subjects, all of which you have failed to respond to or ceded the point on. In addition, there is a fundamental category mistake that undercuts your entire stance on the Pauline corpus. This was noted here as elsewhere.

As to God's sovereignty: this is also subject matter you brought forward in your various references to a Divine determinism. In that regard you have the following absurdities that confront you:

A) A god that can save all but does not, is an evil god.
B) A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god.


The above are not things one can simply run away from or pretend the issues do not exist. Your stance is incoherent.

*The cited post notes nine points. The tenth was my introduction of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Paul's explicit notation of an apostasy.

As far as the question: "Does the God revealed in the Scriptures alone line-up with official Mormon Theology in regards to His complete or partial sovereignty(?)" The answer is, yes.

The Bible is clear that God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone, and God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. We know through Scripture that it is impossible for God to sin, and all that He does is holy, perfect, wise and right.

If God cannot be tempted and Jesus was Divine then you must reject the story recounted in all the Synoptic Gospels on the temptation of Christ. This means the Bible is flawed. If you believe the Bible is inerrant then you must reject the idea that God cannot be tempted.

There is nothing in the Bible that says it is impossible of God to sin. If that were the case then God would not be a free agent. If God is not a free agent then He cannot be a moral being. If He cannot be a moral being then He cannot be good. This undercuts the other noted characteristics about Deity being holy and wise etc.

Please start and quote biblical scriptures to support your understanding of God.

That is a rather large question given the number of pages that make up the Bible. Here are a few:

1) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. -Gen. 1:26

2) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: -Gen 3:22

3) Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. -Isa. 63:16

4) Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. Micah 7:18

5) For there is no respect of persons with God. Rom 2:11

6)Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. -John 20:17

Would you like more?

I assume you are going to present that mankind is sovereign over God in salvation.

That is an odd assumption. Why would any theist assume that man is sovereign over God? If this is a serious statement/question, then you truly have no understanding of Mormon Thought.

Do you believe natural disasters which thousands perish happen outside the sovereignty of God; does nature have a will of it's own outside the control of God?

If this is a categorical and If by sovereignty you mean control then obviously not. Such is an absurd notion. Deity can control things and can bring disaster i.e. what was noted happening to Sodom, but to take the ability to do as meaning that Deity is thereby doing everything (and thus controlling everything) is simply stupidity on stilts. This leads to the noted issue: "A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god."

Nature does not have a will. Nature is not a sentient being. Nature is a system that entails ecosystems in toto, weather, seasons etc. Does nature operate along random lines? Of course!

The bottom line, can you trust God according to His biblical revelation to mankind ?

Yes, I can. Can I trust a Calvinist interpretation of that same Biblical revelation? No.

How does God reveal Himself in the Scriptures?

God reveals Himself in the Scriptures through prophets: both anciently and today.

The Scriptures teach us three essential truths about God, truths we must believe if we are to trust Him in adversity. They are:

1. God is completely sovereign.
2. God is infinte in wisdom.
3. God is perfect in love.

I have no issue with the above as long as sovereign is understood per its basic meaning: authority and thus the believer in the Bible holds that Deity is the ultimate authority. If one holds that "completely sovereign" means total control of everything all the time, then that cancels out points 2) and 3) as such a being must be evil given the existence of evil and God's total control.