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Water into wine: natural or supernatural?

gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
This thread is about whether such a miracle can occur naturally, or whether it is story invented by a person who has no understanding of how wine are made.

In the gospel of John, John 2 narrated that Jesus attended the wedding at Cana, where they have no wedding feast have no wine. So Jesus made wine, by turning water into wine.

Other than John, the other 3 gospels make no mention of this event.

You will have to ask yourself, can this miracle happen? Can water possibly turn into wine, or is this just a story, another parable or allegory? Or is it fairytale or myth, where the supernatural (like magic) is possible?

From my perspective, and my understanding of chemistry, this cannot be possible, let alone probable. This would only be possible if you believe in miracle, a supernatural occurrence. That's just simply blind faith, a conviction that the story is true.

People have been making wine, as far back as the Neolithic period, as well as the later periods (Bronze Age, Iron Age).

To understand wine making, you have to realize water are just basically molecule of 2 hydrogen atoms bonded to 1 oxygen atom.

But of course, there are type of water may have salt (eg sea water) and all sort of minerals (hence today, we can buy and drink mineral water). Plus, instead of the normal hydrogen atoms, it could be its isotope - deuterium, where the water known as "heavy water".

My point is that none of these types of water can turn into wine.

Wine required not only grapes, it also take time to turn grape juice and fermented the natural sugar in the grape into alcohol, and this chemical reaction can only occur if there are yeasts. That's how fermentation work for any alcoholic drinks (eg wine, beer, brandy, mead, etc).

Yeasts that what would turn sugar into alcohol, yeasts are actually unicellular fungi, more specifically

Fermentation is what distinguish wine from fruit juice.

So not only you would need grapes, you would need yeasts, to make wine.

Wine don't naturally come from water. Water has no grape juice, no sugar, no alcohol.

So Jesus' miracle a myth, or do you still think that water can turn into wine?

Agree...disagree. Your thoughts please.
 
Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
gnostic said:
This thread is about whether such a miracle can occur naturally, or whether it is story invented by a person who has no understanding of how wine are made.

In the gospel of John, John 2 narrated that Jesus attended the wedding at Cana, where they have no wedding feast have no wine. So Jesus made wine, by turning water into wine.

Other than John, the other 3 gospels make no mention of this event.

You will have to ask yourself, can this miracle happen? Can water possibly turn into wine, or is this just a story, another parable or allegory? Or is it fairytale or myth, where the supernatural (like magic) is possible?

From my perspective, and my understanding of chemistry, this cannot be possible, let alone probable. This would only be possible if you believe in miracle, a supernatural occurrence. That's just simply blind faith, a conviction that the story is true.

People have been making wine, as far back as the Neolithic period, as well as the later periods (Bronze Age, Iron Age).

To understand wine making, you have to realize water are just basically molecule of 2 hydrogen atoms bonded to 1 oxygen atom.

But of course, there are type of water may have salt (eg sea water) and all sort of minerals (hence today, we can buy and drink mineral water). Plus, instead of the normal hydrogen atoms, it could be its isotope - deuterium, where the water known as "heavy water".

My point is that none of these types of water can turn into wine.

Wine required not only grapes, it also take time to turn grape juice and fermented the natural sugar in the grape into alcohol, and this chemical reaction can only occur if there are yeasts. That's how fermentation work for any alcoholic drinks (eg wine, beer, brandy, mead, etc).

Yeasts that what would turn sugar into alcohol, yeasts are actually unicellular fungi, more specifically

Fermentation is what distinguish wine from fruit juice.

So not only you would need grapes, you would need yeasts, to make wine.

Wine don't naturally come from water. Water has no grape juice, no sugar, no alcohol.

So Jesus' miracle a myth, or do you still think that water can turn into wine?

Agree...disagree. Your thoughts please.
Click to expand...
Seems to my you asked a question and then argued that the question is silly.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
:shrug:

Not my mythos, so I'm pretty indifferent to the entire tale. That said, in general terms mythos is best interpreted with a broad and open mind set free from binary "either or" and "this or that" thinking. If you limit yourself to such polarities you will usually miss out on the full depth and breadth of lessons that mythos has to offer. Part of the staying power of mythos is that there are many valid interpretations on it that continue to provide perennial wisdom for living in the present.
 
WonderingWorrier

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
gnostic said:
My point is that none of these types of water can turn into wine.
Click to expand...

Have you considered different heights of waters? Like the sea is lower than the river?

The Bible speaks of seas, rivers, and streams, and it also speaks of corn, wine, and oil.
The waters of the Bible can be scientifically measured. As being either corn level, oil level, or wine level, as an example.


That is why the waters of the sea can be put into the storehouses:

"He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses". Psalm 33:7

"Storehouses also for the increase of corn, and wine, and oil; and stalls for all manner of beasts, and cotes for flocks". 2 Chronicles 32:28


Bible research shows these positions of measurement:

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

I can see that wine is in position with mountain and stream. It is a high place.

And since "wife" mentioned here is as a grape vine (wine):
"Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table". Psalm 128:3

Therefore the wife also being as wine, is also as a sheep (I can see it is the same level of measurement).


That is why I can see a mountain stream that is as wine, and I can see a marriage of a lamb.

Can you see what I am saying?
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
WonderingWorrier said:
Have you considered different heights of waters? Like the sea is lower than the river?

The Bible speaks of seas, rivers, and streams, and it also speaks of corn, wine, and oil.
The waters of the Bible can be scientifically measured. As being either corn level, oil level, or wine level, as an example.


That is why the waters of the sea can be put into the storehouses:

"He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses". Psalm 33:7

"Storehouses also for the increase of corn, and wine, and oil; and stalls for all manner of beasts, and cotes for flocks". 2 Chronicles 32:28


Bible research shows these positions of measurement:

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

I can see that wine is in position with mountain and stream. It is a high place.

And since "wife" mentioned here is as a grape vine (wine):
"Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table". Psalm 128:3

Therefore the wife also being as wine, is also as a sheep (I can see it is the same level of measurement).


That is why I can see a mountain stream that is as wine, and I can see a marriage of a lamb.

Can you see what I am saying?
Click to expand...

You still cannot “naturally” or chemically turn water into wine.

Wine cannot be produced without grapes, and the pressed grapes required yeasts to turn natural sugar in the grapes into alcohol.

Now what you are saying, it is okay to use to use metaphors or similes to describe two or more different things or different words that only only very superficial similarities with each other, but these are only suitable for allegories or analogies, like if you were writing poetry, verses, songs, and scriptural literature.

But this is a “Science and Religion“ forums & threads, so if you are going to compare “natural phenomena” or “natural events”, like in the real world, against the “supernatural phenomena” or “supernatural events”, like those used in scriptures, myths & fairytale, then there will always between those who understand the sciences of nature, and those who believe in miracles of some religious stories.

Don’t get me wrong, WonderingWorrier. Between the time of my mid-teen and mid-30s, I was believer of the Bible. But during those times, I was less experienced in life and in understanding literature. Plus, back then I didn’t try to mi religion with natural sciences.

What made me questioned the validity of my beliefs in the Bible in the 1st place, wasn’t even science. At the time, I was researching & building my website - Timeless Myths in 2000 - when I reread Jesus’ birth in Matthew 1:23, in regarding to Christian reinterpretation of Isaiah‘s original verse (Isaiah 7:14-17), that I realized the flaw in the (gospel) author’s selective reading of the sign. I came into realisation that Isaiah’s original sign have absolutely nothing to do with any messiah - let alone the birth of messiah.

That what made re-read every so-called signs in the NT gospel, cross-referencing each OT originals, and flaws in each reinterpretations. That’s what made me agnostic, since 2000.

it was only from 2003 to the present, that I have started look other areas of the Bible, eg the validity of Genesis as historical source or as scientific knowledge. The closer that I look at it, the more I realise that it was history at all, not Adam’s creation, nor Noah and the Flood, and there are no independent & contemporary sources to the 3 patriarchs to verify their stories as historically true.

But my doubts actually began with the gospels, several years prior to the Genesis tales.

And it wasn’t just about the lack of historicity of large parts of the Bible, it has also been the miracles that I started to doubt they have happened. Miracles, like magic, that defy reality - the physical & natural reality…hence this thread.

As to your comparison of wine to mountain & to a wife, they are just poor metaphors & similes.
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Well, I believe in a Trinitarian God and I believe that He can do anything He wants to do so I believe that Jesus turned water into wine.
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
Kathryn said:
Well, I believe in a Trinitarian God and I believe that He can do anything He wants to do so I believe that Jesus turned water into wine.
Click to expand...

Then basically, you believe in magic, because that’s what this miracle is.

To be quite frank with you, Kathryn. I used to believe in miracle, such as this one…but the older I get, the less I believe, because from understanding of what water and wine are, it is highly improbable, let alone possible.

What you believe in, is more akin to alchemy, not chemistry.
 
Kathryn

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
gnostic said:
Then basically, you believe in magic, because that’s what this miracle is.

To be quite frank with you, Kathryn. I used to believe in miracle, such as this one…but the older I get, the less I believe, because from understanding of what water and wine are, it is highly improbable, let alone possible.

What you believe in, is more akin to alchemy, not chemistry.
Click to expand...
That's your opinion but not mine. And that's all it is - an individual's opinion.
 
WonderingWorrier

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
gnostic said:
You still cannot “naturally” or chemically turn water into wine.

Wine cannot be produced without grapes, and the pressed grapes required yeasts to turn natural sugar in the grapes into alcohol.

Now what you are saying, it is okay to use to use metaphors or similes to describe two or more different things or different words that only only very superficial similarities with each other, but these are only suitable for allegories or analogies, like if you were writing poetry, verses, songs, and scriptural literature.

But this is a “Science and Religion“ forums & threads, so if you are going to compare “natural phenomena” or “natural events”, like in the real world, against the “supernatural phenomena” or “supernatural events”, like those used in scriptures, myths & fairytale, then there will always between those who understand the sciences of nature, and those who believe in miracles of some religious stories.

Don’t get me wrong, WonderingWorrier. Between the time of my mid-teen and mid-30s, I was believer of the Bible. But during those times, I was less experienced in life and in understanding literature. Plus, back then I didn’t try to mi religion with natural sciences.

What made me questioned the validity of my beliefs in the Bible in the 1st place, wasn’t even science. At the time, I was researching & building my website - Timeless Myths in 2000 - when I reread Jesus’ birth in Matthew 1:23, in regarding to Christian reinterpretation of Isaiah‘s original verse (Isaiah 7:14-17), that I realized the flaw in the (gospel) author’s selective reading of the sign. I came into realisation that Isaiah’s original sign have absolutely nothing to do with any messiah - let alone the birth of messiah.

That what made re-read every so-called signs in the NT gospel, cross-referencing each OT originals, and flaws in each reinterpretations. That’s what made me agnostic, since 2000.

it was only from 2003 to the present, that I have started look other areas of the Bible, eg the validity of Genesis as historical source or as scientific knowledge. The closer that I look at it, the more I realise that it was history at all, not Adam’s creation, nor Noah and the Flood, and there are no independent & contemporary sources to the 3 patriarchs to verify their stories as historically true.

But my doubts actually began with the gospels, several years prior to the Genesis tales.

And it wasn’t just about the lack of historicity of large parts of the Bible, it has also been the miracles that I started to doubt they have happened. Miracles, like magic, that defy reality - the physical & natural reality…hence this thread.

As to your comparison of wine to mountain & to a wife, they are just poor metaphors & similes.
Click to expand...


To clarify the definition of wine, we could take a scientific look at the wine in the Bible. We could use the whole Bible as a reference (using a word search can show every time a certain word is mentioned).

And instead of interpreting "what" the words are saying, we will observe "where" the words are saying.


We can observe these three words: corn, wine, and oil:
And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22


We can see Corn is associated with Sea:
And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number. Genesis 4:49


As Oil is associated with River:
Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 32:14

As Wine is associated with Stream
But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24
Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine. Psalm 78:65


Can you see any logical problems with this explanation based on observation of the whole Bible?

Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
Kathryn said:
That's your opinion but not mine. And that's all it is - an individual's opinion.
Click to expand...

About miracles in general, yes, they are personal opinions, whether it be yours, mine or someone else.

However, the composition of water, the composition of grapes and composition of wine, the practice of winemaking - particularly the fermentation process, and so on, they are facts, not personal opinions.

Water cannot miraculously or magically turn into wine, that’s not a personal opinion.

Fermentation come from turning the natural sugar in the grape and their juice, into alcohol, comes from mixing the carbohydrates (sugars) with yeasts.

I have already explain part of the process of winemaking, how fermentation occurred with introduction of yeasts that turn sugars into alcohol.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
gnostic said:
So Jesus' miracle a myth, or do you still think that water can turn into wine?

Agree...disagree. Your thoughts please.
Click to expand...
I don’t think anyone can turn water into wine. I do think God, the Creator of heaven and earth can turn water into wine. It doesn’t seem like a monumental feat for One outside of the physical realm, One who created the universe and raises the dead. I don’t consider it magic at all, rather omnipotence and infinite knowledge beyond finite human comprehension.
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
WonderingWorrier said:
To clarify the definition of wine, we could take a scientific look at the wine in the Bible. We could use the whole Bible as a reference (using a word search can show every time a certain word is mentioned).

And instead of interpreting "what" the words are saying, we will observe "where" the words are saying.


We can observe these three words: corn, wine, and oil:
And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. Hosea 2:22


We can see Corn is associated with Sea:
And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number. Genesis 4:49


As Oil is associated with River:
Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 32:14

As Wine is associated with Stream
But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24
Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine. Psalm 78:65


Can you see any logical problems with this explanation based on observation of the whole Bible?

Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Click to expand...

You are quoting verses from Psalms, Ezekiel, Horsea, etc, which really have nothing to do what it say in John 2, about Jesus. These quotes are irrelevance to Jesus' miracle at Cana.

I know every well about literature using similes and metaphors, because I used to love reading myths. Other religions use such literary device, to compare something to something very different, and they often appeared in poetry and hymns (songs), and scriptural literature.

If Jesus' miracle was merely a metaphor or allegory, then the miracle didn't happen at all.

Are you saying the wedding at Cana - the miracle - was merely an allegory?

I would agree with you if are saying that (allegory). Because water cannot turn into wine, not in this reality...that's not mere opinion, it's a fact because we know how wine can be made today.
 
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