Gender reassignment/affirming surgery

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

This kind of craziness.....

Planet Fitness Revokes Membership of Woman Who Videoed Trans Woman in Locker Room

Planet Fitness is facing a backlash from some conservatives after the fitness chain revoked the membership of a woman who took a photo of a naked person in a women's locker room at one of the chain's locations in Fairbanks, Alaska.

www.athleticbusiness.com

Looks like Planet Fitness dealt with the craziness.

I’m still not seeing the problem.

 

[icehorse]

No, it is definitely people that feel and think that they are the opposite sex. And they could be right.

I think your definition is overly narrow, but I'm fine to stick with that for now.

One could actually have female body parts and a male brain and vice versa.

I think the science on "male" or "female" brains is mostly still unsettled, but again, I think we can leave that aside for now.

Dictionary definitions always are lacking. And this is a complex subject. I will defer to our members that are trans to fill in the details. I will not answer for them since I have to admit that I cannot understand the condition as well as they can.

Again, the terms "gender" and "gender identity" have made their way into laws and policies that impact us all. Thanks to the transactivists, this is no longer just a personal experience.

And now, can you answer the question that I asked you twice, actually three times now. I never dodged your questions and you dodged mine twice so far.

And again, I'm NOT dodging your questions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you've now asked me two questions:

Sex and gender are not the same thing. You have debated this enough to be aware of the science that supports transgenderism. How do you deal with the science?

I appreciate that we're able to have a civil conversation on this highly charged topic. That said - and again I'm not trying to dodge you, I'm seeking clarification - what science?

I agree that "gender dysphoria" (GD), is a serious mental health condition. Is that the science you're referring to? If you're referring to the idea that their are biologically "male" brains and "female" brains, I do not think that question is settled science yet. Are you referring to the idea that "gender affirming care" is based on science? (If so, the evidence is mounting that it is based on pseudo-science, see the Cass report and the WPATH files.)

I'm going to assume that when you ask about "the science", you're referring to GD. Correct me if I misunderstood. As far as GD goes, the best evidence is that most kids with GD grow out of it naturally, without medical interventions, as they go through puberty. And further, that most kids with GD end up being gay and having other comorbidities. I think talk therapy is appropriate for kids with GD. I do not think there is any high quality evidence that GAC drugs or surgeries are effective in battling GD, and they are known to be dangerous and irreversible.

Now how does this "impact women's safety"? I have as yet to see it be a problem for such.

There are bad men who have been taking advantage of poorly worded "self identification laws" and "gender identity laws". These men are gaming the system to be put into women's prisons as opposed to men's prisons. They are gaining access to women's safe spaces such as shelters, hospital wards, and locker rooms.

The fact that you haven't seen this doesn't carry much water. Are you aware of all the events in the world?

==

I hope I have addressed your questions. If I have not, it's not because I'm dodging. I will be happy to answer again.

But that still leaves us with the question of defining "gender" and "gender identity"... And to be clear, I think the reason that no one on this thread has done a good job with a definition is because there simply isn't one. They are slippery terms promoted by activists.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

There are bad men who have been taking advantage of poorly worded "self identification laws" and "gender identity laws". These men are gaming the system to be put into women's prisons as opposed to men's prisons. They are gaining access to women's safe spaces such as shelters, hospital wards, and locker rooms.

From the article:

Planet Fitness policy reads: “If a serious concern or significant doubt about the bona fides of a person’s transgender or nonbinary status/identity arises and which the team member can articulate, the team member shall address their concerns with the member. If discussion with the member fails to resolve the serious concern or doubt, the club may ask for external evidence of the member’s asserted gender identity. If it is confirmed that a member is acting in bad faith and improperly asserts a gender identity, they may be asked to leave and their membership may be terminated.”

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think your definition is overly narrow, but I'm fine to stick with that for now.


I think the science on "male" or "female" brains is mostly still unsettled, but again, I think we can leave that aside for now.



Again, the terms "gender" and "gender identity" have made their way into laws and policies that impact us all. Thanks to the transactivists, this is no longer just a personal experience.



And again, I'm NOT dodging your questions. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you've now asked me two questions:



I appreciate that we're able to have a civil conversation on this highly charged topic. That said - and again I'm not trying to dodge you, I'm seeking clarification - what science?

I agree that "gender dysphoria" (GD), is a serious mental health condition. Is that the science you're referring to? If you're referring to the idea that their are biologically "male" brains and "female" brains, I do not think that question is settled science yet. Are you referring to the idea that "gender affirming care" is based on science? (If so, the evidence is mounting that it is based on pseudo-science, see the Cass report and the WPATH files.)

I'm going to assume that when you ask about "the science", you're referring to GD. Correct me if I misunderstood. As far as GD goes, the best evidence is that most kids with GD grow out of it naturally, without medical interventions, as they go through puberty. And further, that most kids with GD end up being gay and having other comorbidities. I think talk therapy is appropriate for kids with GD. I do not think there is any high quality evidence that GAC drugs or surgeries are effective in battling GD, and they are known to be dangerous and irreversible.



There are bad men who have been taking advantage of poorly worded "self identification laws" and "gender identity laws". These men are gaming the system to be put into women's prisons as opposed to men's prisons. They are gaining access to women's safe spaces such as shelters, hospital wards, and locker rooms.

The fact that you haven't seen this doesn't carry much water. Are you aware of all the events in the world?

==

I hope I have addressed your questions. If I have not, it's not because I'm dodging. I will be happy to answer again.

But that still leaves us with the question of defining "gender" and "gender identity"... And to be clear, I think the reason that no one on this thread has done a good job with a definition is because there simply isn't one. They are slippery terms promoted by activists.

Let's go over the last issue first. That sounds like a scare tactic. Do you have anything that shows that this is a significant problem? To me it would be rather easily resolved. If they never demonstrated that they were trans before sentencing there would be a very high burden of proof upon the prisoners. If they had a history of being trans I do not see it likely at all that a man pretending to be trans would commit a crime to get sent to a woman's prison.

 

[icehorse]

From the article:

Planet Fitness policy reads: “If a serious concern or significant doubt about the bona fides of a person’s transgender or nonbinary status/identity arises and which the team member can articulate, the team member shall address their concerns with the member. If discussion with the member fails to resolve the serious concern or doubt, the club may ask for external evidence of the member’s asserted gender identity. If it is confirmed that a member is acting in bad faith and improperly asserts a gender identity, they may be asked to leave and their membership may be terminated.”

That policy seems riddled with ambiguity to me. If one of my daughters told me there was a scary, large trans woman going to her gym, I'd be worried, and this policy would not ease my concerns.

And to be clear, I am NOT suggesting that trans women are any more violent than women. But what I AM suggesting is that there are bad men gaming the system. We are seeing bad actors claiming to be trans women participating in and injuring women and girls. And even if no injuries occur, these bad actors are cheating.

What do you see when you see Lia Thomas on a podium? What I see is a selfish, narcissistic man, cheating.

 

[icehorse]

Let's go over the last issue first. That sounds like a scare tactic. Do you have anything that shows that this is a significant problem? To me it would be rather easily resolved. If they never demonstrated that they were trans before sentencing there would be a very high burden of proof upon the prisoners. If they had a history of being trans I do not see it likely at all that a man pretending to be trans would commit a crime to get sent to a woman's prison.

Your lack of empathy for women in prison is truly gobsmacking.

This is easily searchable. Here's a link to an article that describes a documentary devoted to this topic:

Cruel and Unusual Punishment: Documentary of Former Inmate Exposes Sex Discrimination & The Dangers of Housing Men in Women's Prisons

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your lack of empathy for women in prison is truly gobsmacking.

This is easily searchable. Here's a link to an article that describes a documentary devoted to this topic:

Cruel and Unusual Punishment: Documentary of Former Inmate Exposes Sex Discrimination & The Dangers of Housing Men in Women's Prisons

That does not look like a reliable source. "Independent Women's Forum" is a conservative organization. Basically it is exactly what you worry about, but the other way around:

Independent Women's Forum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So one more time, do you have any reliable sources that support your claims. By the way, don't give others that "you should have searched this yourself" BS. I have searched this sort of story and did not find any reliable sources that support you.

Independent Women’s Forum (IWF)

RIGHT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Heavily right wing biased and of mixed factuality. It is not a trustworthy source.

 

[icehorse]

That does not look like a reliable source. "Independent Women's Forum" is a conservative organization. Basically it is exactly what you worry about, but the other way around:

Independent Women's Forum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So one more time, do you have any reliable sources that support your claims. By the way, don't give others that "you should have searched this yourself" BS. I have searched this sort of story and did not find any reliable sources that support you.

Independent Women’s Forum (IWF)

RIGHT BIAS These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Heavily right wing biased and of mixed factuality. It is not a trustworthy source.

Well these days it's hard to find neutral news sources. And BTW, shouldn't we be evaluating the claims, not the messengers?

How about this one?

Men have no place in women’s prisons | Centre for Crime and Justice Studies

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well these days it's hard to find neutral news sources. And BTW, shouldn't we be evaluating the claims, not the messengers?

How about this one?

Men have no place in women’s prisons | Centre for Crime and Justice Studies

Better, but that was on the prison and their policy in England. Now "Karen Wood" had a history of sexual assault before prison. She had been transitioning, but this was a clear case where they screwed up. I would never transfer someone that had a history of raping women to a woman's prison. Someone's head was not on right there. You have found one, do I need to post you example of trans people being assaulted both physically and sexually in men's prisons? I can do so if needed. Even with that one example that might not be enough to end their possibly messed up standards. But at least that was a real trarnsperson.

At any rate I would hope that we could do better here You can find more details about "Karen" and when you see her photograph you can just hear "I want to speak to a manger" here:

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life

Karen White, 52, admitted sexually assaulting women in female prison and raping two other women outside jail

www.theguardian.com

To properly judge whether this is a good policy or not one has to take a deeper look. And one would have to go over people trying to switch prisons on a case by case basis. I would require a history of being trans before prison Stephen/Karen passes that test, and no crimes of any sort upon members of the opposite sex, Stephen/Karen would have failed that test.

 

[icehorse]

Better, but that was on the prison and their policy in England. Now "Karen Wood" had a history of sexual assault before prison. She had been transitioning, but this was a clear case where they screwed up. I would never transfer someone that had a history of raping women to a woman's prison. Someone's head was not on right there. You have found one, do I need to post you example of trans people being assaulted both physically and sexually in men's prisons? I can do so if needed. Even with that one example that might not be enough to end their possibly messed up standards. But at least that was a real trarnsperson.

I don't think this is an either / or. In other words, I understand the issues involved if you were to imprison a trans woman in a men's prison.

So we need a special place for trans women to be imprisoned.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't think this is an either / or. In other words, I understand the issues involved if you were to imprison a trans woman in a men's prison.

Really? You understand that you are putting her at dire risk and you are fine with that because she was a "man"? How does that make sense.

So we need a special place for trans women to be imprisoned.

Perhaps. I doubt there are that many in prison to start with.

 

[icehorse]

Really? You understand that you are putting her at dire risk and you are fine with that because she was a "man"? How does that make sense.

did you really not understand me when I said I understood the issues? Of course it would be putting him at dire risk, doh!

Now here's a nice summary collection of bad men taking advantage of poorly worded gender ideology laws. Scroll to the top of this link:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1774749954629652873

 

[Subduction Zone]

did you really not understand me when I said I understood the issues? Of course it would be putting him at dire risk, doh!

Now here's a nice summary collection of bad men taking advantage of poorly worded gender ideology laws. Scroll to the top of this link:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1774749954629652873

If you can't be serious how do you expect people to treat you with any respect at all?

 

[icehorse]

If you can't be serious how do you expect people to treat you with any respect at all?

And how was that not serious? I think that was serious as a heart attack.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And how was that not serious? I think that was serious as a heart attack.

Then you are not able to discuss this rationally.

 

[icehorse]

Then you are not able to discuss this rationally.

You asked for examples of bad men using these self-id laws to harm women. I just provided you 10 examples (thanks to JKR), of just such.

How is that not rational? You're directing some harsh claims at me, can you back them up, because so far all you've done is name calling with no evidence. You think that's a good look?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You asked for examples of bad men using these self-id laws to harm women. I just provided you 10 examples (thanks to JKR), of just such.

How is that not rational? You're directing some harsh claims at me, can you back them up, because so far all you've done is name calling with no evidence. You think that's a good look?

No, you copied an pasted a tweet by an extremist. You have a lot to learn about how to debate properly. You have as yet to find a single reliable source that supports you.

 

[icehorse]

No, you copied an pasted a tweet by an extremist. You have a lot to learn about how to debate properly. You have as yet to find a single reliable source that supports you.

I disagree with your characterization of JKR, but that doesn't matter.

That tweet contained 10 examples. All extremely factual in nature. In other words easily verifiable.

That's a key aspect of debate, making factual claims. I just showed you 10...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You asked for examples of bad men using these self-id laws to harm women. I just provided you 10 examples (thanks to JKR), of just such.

How is that not rational? You're directing some harsh claims at me, can you back them up, because so far all you've done is name calling with no evidence. You think that's a good look?

Let us say we grant you at least one example, Then what?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I disagree with your characterization of JKR, but that doesn't matter.

That tweet contained 10 examples. All extremely factual in nature. In other words easily verifiable.

That's a key aspect of debate, making factual claims. I just showed you 10...

There is no doubt that JKR has a strange deep seated hatred of trans people. Why, no one knows. When you use such a poor source no rational person is going to take you seriously. All that you have done is to demonstrate that transphobia is a real thing. You have not helped your arguments at all.